What Do VCs Really Look For in Founders?

When we applied to Sandbox, we pretty much had nothing other than an idea and a disproportionate amount of belief in our own capabilities. It felt a little bit like uh like is this like going back to university or is it like going back to school? You know, this was completely unknown. Everything that we perhaps expected on a negative side of things was completely blown out of the water in probably the first 5 minutes with the quick introduction.

I forget what it's called now. >> Oh, the pachukucha. Yeah, we're able to to be challenged on our storytelling, our narrative, but I do think that's something that a lot of founders fail to recognize. They have to be the ones to impress the other side of the table as opposed to building genuine relationship based on mutual trust, mutual respect, and mutual ambition. Right? You also want investors that back the ambition that you have, not play it too safe.

>> Early stage, it's still quite scrappy. Not just with Tribe, but with many startups. We recognize that. >> Yeah. My view is if you left Sandbox with or without investment, the value that you left with in terms of your data room, your assumptions or hypotheses being challenged, your products being reviewed, your marketing being reviewed, like you can't leave with less than what you entered with.

And if you did, then you're going to fail. We didn't have a 100% conviction in tribe. I don't think we've ever had a 100% conviction in any stuff that we've invested in. But we had enough conviction to warrant, let's get in early and see how this unfolds. You knew your strengths, you knew your weaknesses, you knew your gaps, you had a plan. We often get challenged and we obviously got challenged. You're going to deal with competition.

It's like, we're going to tackle them head on. And we have a huge amount of respect for them, but that doesn't mean we stop doing what we're doing or we stop in our own tracks because there's other competitors out there. And like you said, they've done a great job of paving the way. We're just now going to run our own race. We're going to continue punching above our our weight for as long as we can.

Welcome to Blockby. On today's episode, we're talking about capital and conviction for early stage startups like Tribe. Uh today, I'm really pleased to have Elliot Denim join me from Orisa Capital. Elliot is the head of programs and he spearheads the sandbox program. We will dive into how tribe got into the program, what the views of the team were through the process and how we ended up getting capital at such an early stage despite not having revenue, despite not having our license.

Raising capital in Dubai is a challenge. Uh I've made a point of this a number of times. If any founders think it's easy, um we're here to dispel that myth. I hope you enjoy the episode. Okay. Uh so Elliot's with me. Welcome Elliot. Thank you for joining me. Um >> for those that don't know Elliot, as I mentioned, he's the head of programs at Orisa Capital. Um and for those that don't know Orusa Capital, maybe Elliot, you could give us a quick overview of uh your role, yourself and and Oricsa Capital.

>> Sure. Thanks for very much for for having me. So Ora Capital, we're $150 million VC fund based out of Dubai. We're the VC arm of Diaz, Dubai Integrated Economic Zone. We are a investor investing from preede all the way to series B. Uh we invest in sector agnostic technology startups that have a clear relevance and nexus to the UAE. I'm very pleased to share that we're recognized as one of the most broad institutional investors in the UAE but also the number one most active investors in the UAE.

In 2024, we deployed into 24 deals. In 2025, we deployed into 25 deals. Nice. >> Um, and the momentum continues to build into 2026. >> Awesome. Um, so let's see. Hopefully at least 26 deals. Are you following the years 24 and 24, 25 and 24? >> Who knows? You know, a fundamentalist uh investor. If the opportunity presents itself, why not? >> Awesome. Um, so as I mentioned in the intro, Tribe is a proud graduate of the Sandbox program.

Um, who tell me a little bit about Sandbox. Uh, you you head that up, right? >> I do. Yeah. So as head of programs at Oria Capital, I'm responsible for leading the the preede and seed investments and the way that we uh conduct our due diligence essentially internally at preede and seed stage is in a programmatic fashion. So sandbox is really a due diligence process. It's an investment process.

So rather than us investing or evaluating startups one by one by one by one, 365 days a year, we identify the best startups we could find, we batch them into uh into a cohort, roughly 20 startups per cohort, always quality over quantity. And then over about an eight-week period, we conduct lots of sessions and guests and workshops to get to know the teams, the habits, the discipline, the coachability, the forthcomingness, their transparency and their trust.

And for them to get to know us, >> we also evaluate their legals, their finances, their tech, their product, their commercials and so on. And that all concludes after 8 weeks into a pitch to the our investment committee at Oria Capital. Should the startup pass the investment committee that then they move into that second phase which is where they become part of our portfolio at Oria Capital and they receive the funds, the access, the exposure um connections to experts working in and on their business.

If they need a accountant for two hours, a growth marketing specialist for 5 hours, a lawyer for four hours, we pay for those professionals to work in and on uh the the the startup. And the benefit really is that we run two cohorts a year, one in February typically and one in September typically. So if a startup joins and then receives uh um access and funding, then they're able to access and avail the support cohort after cohort after cohort, you know, for the for the tenure of the relationship, which could be 7 to 10 years >> hopefully.

So um so before we go any further if you are a preede or a seed stage startup typically based in the UAE but it doesn't have to be um but with a an you know a close association or link nexus is the word that you guys use which I like um >> then how do how does a startup apply? they can apply via sandbox accelerator.com and as I said essentially Sandbox serves as the gateway into Oraia Capital.

What is exciting for a preceding or seed startup is that our check sizes start from $150,000 but could go all the way up to $3 million at series B. And for founders at the early stages in particular, and I'm sure we'll talk about this, a a benefit of considering Oraia Capital joining one's cap cap table is the fact that we can follow on. So our first check is often not our last check. >> Okay.

Um I mean I've already referred a few people. Uh I truly believe in the program and I think the really one of the nice things about um Orisa, actually the best thing about Orusa is the people. But the really nice thing about the people is you make yourself available. So you'd have, you know, a whole bunch of open, you know, events and pitch days and you host events as well. And there was the the founders summit during doers summit.

Um, so yeah, I think, you know, you make yourself really accessible, which is quite unique. It's almost the opposite way around to, >> you know, how it's how it's typically been done. Um, certainly here in Dubai. >> I appreciate that. And, you know, at the end of the day, two things I'd say there. one, we didn't become the most active investor in the UAE overnight by chance. It was it was, you know, very meticulous uh planning and execution.

But number two, if we can see in startups level up, even if we don't invest, even if a startup comes, learns about the world of VC from Oria Capital and and determines actually I I'm not I'm not uh applicable or keen to fund raise from Ora Capital or from any other VC, then we're seeing the overall quality of candidates and startups and founders um increasing caliber and and that's why we do that. Makes sense.

Okay, let's start with an easy one then. Um, obviously Tribe applied to the uh sandbox cohort 7. We applied back in >> I I guess it would have been June or July uh 2025 for the September uh start date. >> Now for context for those that are watching or listening uh Tribe only incorporated in June. Um, we submitted our initial disclosure questionnaire to VAR in July and we got our approval to incorporate in August.

Meaning when we applied to Sandbox, we pretty much had nothing other than an idea and a disproportionate amount of belief in our own capabilities um, based on where we were at. >> Sure. So what caught your attention about tribe based on the limited amount of data, traction, metrics, information that we were able to give? >> Ultimately from a macro perspective, if we look at the asset class of property, it's uh proven over hundreds of years if not millennia that it's a lucrative asset class that is is fairly stable and predictable around the world.

But increasingly also around the world in today's era, it becomes increasingly inaccessible to the masses. And so with that in mind, you've got this demand, this pentup demand for for an asset that perhaps people can't afford. And so Trib's model of fractionalizing and tokenizing, you know, access to said asset is very appealing. Equally whilst the traction was limited and the you know tribes >> limited >> tribes progress was so far >> was was was in its infancy.

You you joked about it earlier but that that deep deep belief and vision of what you were doing and the conviction that not only you were doing it but you're going to win it. Um played a very contributing factor to to at least peak our interest. Um, since then, I guess we'll get into it, but since then, uh, that's that that initial impression has only been cemented. >> Well, thank you. Um, I guess let's just stay there a little bit.

Um, the the concept of, you know, an orice portfolio company tokenizing, fractionalizing, fractionalizing real estate, you know, piqu your interest. what what were the connections or I guess uh convictions you had at such an early stage that made it worth you know investing more time accepting us into the program a very competitive program nonetheless um absolutely >> you know you mentioned Diaz you know was it the association to such a big >> uh ecosystem you know was it the belief in >> web uh web 3 blockchain what were the kind of the early signals that maybe you had internally versus what we had and were able to provide externally.

>> So I would say number one would be the macro tailwinds. It's a growing market. Um number two the timing um is is particularly relevant because there's more and more people particularly in this region or uh in in this country who want to have access to um property as a as an asset class but perhaps can't. Uh number three the regulatory tailwinds. you know, it's from top down, there's a lot of innovation happening at the city level, and we'll talk about that separately, I'm sure.

Um, and and you're tapping into that tailwind. But number four, and arguably most important, is the fact that you guys are not first-time founders. You're not you're not necessarily solo founders. And I do want to caveat that that first-time founders and solo founders and we have invested in them can be can make excellent entrepreneurs had such strong market founder fit which is refreshing and had such a clear vision on how you would do what you what you'd done or what you intend to do uh and the journey you're on.

Had Tribe been the first property tokenization startup in the city, maybe it would, you know, you've really got to um uh to to to knock down a lot of barriers in that in that capacity. But since the precedent had already been set by one or two other uh companies, it meant that you didn't quite have a a red carpet rolled out for you, but you had a little bit of a of of a precedent which you could lean on to.

And so if I was to summarize four high level things, it would probably be those. >> Yeah. No, I think it's a good point as well. We often get challenged and we obviously got challenged during the the first phase of cohort 7 on competition. You know, you know, how are you going to deal with competition? It's like, well, we're going to tackle them head on. And we have a huge amount of respect for them, but that doesn't mean we stop doing what we're doing or we stop our own kind of in our own tracks because there's other competitors out there.

And like you said, they've done a great job of paving the way. We're just now going to run our own own race. Um, so obviously Tribe got into Sandbox. Uh, like I mentioned, we started in September. Um, I'll be honest, like because it's such a unique program, we didn't know what to expect. >> Mhm. >> It it felt a little bit like gh like is this like going back to university? Is it like going back to school?

you know what what is it going to be like that unknown I guess was was real um and it wasn't like going back to school because you after a summer holiday or Christmas holiday break because you know what to expect you know this was completely unknown and everything was uh everything that we perhaps expected on a negative side of things was completely blown out of the water in probably the first five minutes with the the quick introduction I forget what it's called now.

>> Oh, the pachukucha. >> Yeah. Uh if you haven't done one, try one. I think it's really good and it broke broke down all the barriers and made everybody kind of like open up to each other very quickly. >> Um >> from your perspective, um how did a tribe benefit from, you know, that initial phase of the of the program? >> So, thank you. Uh you know, it's been it's been seven cohorts.

We're actively scouting for our eighth cohort. And again, there's two cohorts a year um to get to this point. So, it's not like again it happened overnight. It's very very hard and diligent work from the team looking at what's working well, what isn't and and constantly iterating and seeking to improve. >> Um that has made it what it is and it will evolve. You know, when we get to our 9th, 11th, 15th cohort, I'm sure it will be a different product much like Tribe potentially.

Um, reading between the lines, I'm glad to hear that you think it was worth it in terms of where I think Tribe excelled in that first due diligence phase where we're getting to know you, you're getting to know us, and you know, we're evaluating the investment potential and opportunity in the business is perhaps as a leader, as a CEO, or as a group, as co-founders, you all made the deliberate decision for the next eight weeks, we're turning up.

We're turning up. We're trusting this process. We're gonna we're gonna be there, be present, and we're going to really squeeze the juice out of out of this fruit, this metaphor metaphorical fruit, as much as we can. And the indirect consequence of that was that we could get to know you on a personal level and your you not just yourself but your your co-founders >> in much more depth than if you had just perhaps attended five or 10 or 15% of what was offered.

Y >> and it's not only the evaluation of the legals and uh the finances and the accounts and the governance that we were evaluating, but it's deliberately structured in an 8week capacity such that we can evaluate who we're ultimately dealing with and and potentially doing business with. And a bit of a fact of the day is like an average successful startup and VC relationship is longer than the average marriage.

So, you know, it's not a matter of like, hey, cool. Legals, >> legals are good, uh, accounts are good, governance is good, let's invest. Not at all. You know, ultimately, there's much more at play than just signing a term sheet. And there's much more, uh, support that can be offered from investors, uh, as as we discussed off camera. Um, so when startups are evaluating or when when VCs are evaluating startups, it's not a one-way street.

It's a two-way street. 100% uh and I think you you guys were transparent, you were forthcoming, you knew your strengths, you knew your weaknesses, you knew your gaps, you had a plan uh as to how to fill those gaps. And it was it just created a a fairly strong level of conviction that like cool, we don't know what Tribe is going to look like in 6 months or 12 months. >> But do we back the people who are building what they're building?

Yes. >> You're absolutely right, number one, in that it's a two-way street. And I think a lot of founders often forget that fact. And it is a fact because like you said, if you marry the wrong person, guess what? You get divorced and it's ugly and it's messy. And if you if you if you invest in the wrong business or you take investment from the wrong investor, guess what? It probably fails and it ends messy and with a lot of disappointment and frustration.

So having the opportunity to get to know yourself and the rest of the team um is was as important for us perhaps as it was for you. But I do think that's something that a lot of founders fail to recognize because they feel like they have to be the ones to impress the other side of the table as opposed to building a rel like a genuine relationship based on mutual trust, mutual respect and mutual ambition, right?

Because you also want investors that back the ambition that you have, not you know, play it too safe, right? There's other types or ways of investing in that um in that respect. So, you know, we took as an opportunity to really get to know you guys. Um, and quite frankly, I think we just had a lot of fun along the way. Um, but the other point I wanted to mention is, you know, the business model, the financial model, a lot of the thinking that we went into Sandbox with, >> we didn't leave Sandbox with, right?

we we had the opportunity to meet with great people uh whether it's from a growth marketing perspective or you know some of the pitch tearowns or or whatever it might have been you know we were able to to be challenged on our storytelling our narrative but also then you know actually just like you say fill some of those gaps and every startup certainly at preede stage is probably going to have more gaps than it has you know plugged those holes.

>> Sure. and and it was a really unique opportunity for us to kind of a little bit like going to university, a little bit like stepping away from the day-to-day madness of wherever you're working from, coffee shop, office, home, whatever it might be, and just think again or rethink some of the assumptions that you'd made. So I think that was probably one of the um one of the major benefits is having that kind of time and space to think differently as well as being challenged by experts in their field um not just yourselves.

So um that was super super valuable for us. Um >> that that's actually uh coincidentally um a byproduct, right? That's not necessarily intent, >> but I'm glad to hear that it gave you the head space and time to to challenge and critique oneself. And as you mentioned the word challenge, I just finished the word writing down the word challen challenge because the whole process is about challenging our thesis on should we invest and our risk appetite and evaluating risk for a startup A versus startup B.

But it's also on challenging founders on their own understanding of the landscape, the comp competition, their product roadmap, etc. And if a startup didn't necessarily pass that first phase of due diligence, then they hopefully left having leveled up on a handful of those uh variables that you alluded to, but also leveled up on their investment readiness and their investment awareness so that if it's not necessarily Oscars capital, then they've got better odds with other investors that might be in their pipeline or that they've been in discussion with notably leaving with per hopefully a much much better more coherent VDR which is an often overlooked piece of the full um fundraising cycle if you will.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I agree. Ultimately my view is if you left sandbox with or without investment um the value that you left with in terms of your data room your your assumptions or hypotheses being challenged your products being reviewed your marketing being reviewed like you can't leave with less than what you entered with and if you did then you're going to fail right so um but you know we met all of obviously all of the uh phase one members obviously those that got invested phase two like they're all brilliant minds brilliant businesses and you can see how all of those businesses were developing like in real time and that was quite a nice thing to watch >> from a founder to founder perspective.

Um >> so I I'll ask you a a double-edged question here. um where with a view to investing I mean I I'm guessing you ultimately take you know the 20 or so uh startups into the program with a view to investing in all of them but knowing that you ultimately or most likely won't invest in all of them um for Tribe specifically what what were you looking at in terms of what were you underwriting from a risk perspective?

Was it the market? Was it the business model? Was it the people? like what were the biggest um risk mitigants if you will from a early stage pre-revenue pre-licicensed startup >> and I guess it kind of couples with the question of like what were the what were the greatest signals that really mattered to to ora >> so if it were if I had to choose between market what was it market model and uh people >> um I I wouldn't be able to because it's not an isolated silo decision right it's a it's a comprehensive ive decision uh with many variables factored in.

But if you're building into a shrinking market, that's probably from a macro perspective completely out of your control. Probably a no-go, >> but you're not. So that's a that was good. If you look at the model, again, we've discussed that it's on paper it makes sense. You know, uh you can buy fractionalized shares and stocks for, you know, cents on the dollar. why can't you necessarily access the apartment or the villa in your community uh in the same capacity?

So on paper that makes sense. And then thirdly, the the people um second time or not first-time founders diverse skill set recognizing where you uh have have such great strengths as a CEO and leader and also where you've complemented them deliberately with people that you trust and and clear clearly have expertise in in said domain. It's a a good recipe. I don't want to say a recipe for success because I don't want to jinx it, right?

We don't know what the weather's going to do next week. Um but there's there's decent amount of conviction that the market is growing. The model is applicable and timely and the people navigating that storm that is inevitable and it I want to make this point really really emphasize this point like it's not just a matter of if you uh face and weather a storm it's when and how you weather that storm and potentially how many things >> uh was high enough to us for us to go yeah like this is uh this is this is worth uh worth digging into.

The other the other thing that was like bit of a risk mitigant particularly in the early stages that you were in was your disciplined and professional and timely approach to VAR. Now we have no affiliation to borrow and if you are able to navigate a regulatory landscape like that in such a professional manner that perhaps funded more mature businesses are struggling with um then it says a lot reading between the lines and so whilst you didn't necessarily have the full VAR license at that stage the indicators of the appetite from Vara who could perhaps have easily said no this is not going to h

igh but you know uh absolutely did the opposite was a very strong indicator to us that actually the people who are navigating a very very difficult regulated challenge and landscape are doing so in a diligent comprehensive professional manner that is uh perhaps far above their years if you will >> yeah and I think that's uh I think many people have said that that a similar thing and we're grateful and we're going to continue punching above our our weight for as long as we can.

Um, so in in phase uh one, let's even go back from that. So cohort 7, you had probably over a thousand applicants. >> Yes, correct. >> You then whittleled that down to 20 startups that entered the sandbox program in September and I think eight got investment. >> That's correct. >> So from 1,000 down to 20 down to eight. Um, what what could have been the difference for for Tribe?

Let's just keep using Tribe because I don't want to talk about anyone any of the other startups, but what could have been the difference for Tribe in not making the cut and not getting that investment from from Orisa? >> I think if your cap table was heavily diluted too early, it would have been a deal breaker. Yeah, >> we could like you, your team, your product, uh your your product roadmap in your case, >> the way you're navigating the regulatory compliance, your initial perhaps waiting list or uh any form of traction, but then we can get to your cap table and it can be a showstopper.

Thankfully, in your case, it wasn't. A second would be burn rate. If if it turns out that your burn is super high and yet your pre-product, you're pre you're pre-revenue, if you will, um, and you're you're burning a lot perhaps on salaries or things that aren't necessarily uh moving the needle, and as a result, your runway is limited down to weeks or ear, you know, a few months. It probably would have would have been a showstopper.

In your case, that wasn't the case. Um and then thirdly would have been the you know the vara um the vara appetite had vara kind of not necessarily been uh as impressed as they have continue to be and that's that's earned right you've earned that you don't it's not presented to you on a on a silver platter then it would have been uh probably you know different but in your case the way you navigated that as I alluded to uh showcase positive indicators >> and so linking then to um Ora's decision to invest in Tribe and just to kind of um help the listeners or viewers understand the the culm

ination of 8 weeksish of work from phase one of the Sandbox program um is a it's not a demo day but more of an IC uh pitch um with three >> uh investment committee members from Orisa um uh two of whom are from Diaz if I'm not mistaken. Um >> and and actually two of the three members of the IC you almost don't spend any time with. So it is a bit of a an independent ne or more neutral view than what you know you would have because we've seen you know two or three days a week for eight weeks.

So >> there was a sense of uh a heightened sense of pressure or or unknown back into the process. Um, and yeah, like you said, whether it was a Tuesday or a Wednesday or depending on what time and you know, all of these variables, but yeah, we got through we're obviously super proud to to receive that investment. Um, am I am I right in kind of saying that the the regulatory tailwinds and the regulatory kind of not endorsement because we didn't have an endorsement, but we had the approval to incorporate.

We were well through the or well on our way through the process of getting our imprincipal approval. >> Um, and you've mentioned the people. Were there any other deciding factors in in the IC's decision to to invest >> look >> that I've missed >> early stage particularly preceded and seed >> it's still quite scrappy you know the op not just with tribe but with many startups the behind the scenes are still quite scrappy we recognize that >> things start and processes and systems start to formalize and structures start to be built once uh there's some predicta

bility to to a business but as you're building the plane as it's flying ing and you're iterating and you're uh hypothesizing and then you're finding that your hypothesis changes and you are wrong and you need to change and pivot um you are placing a lot if you know roughly 70% maybe maybe more depends on the VC sometimes less uh of the decision on on the capabilities of of the captains of the ship if you will um and and that's the case with with tribe because it wasn't a solo founder it was a diverse team uh from a pre with prior experience working together in relationships and proven successes in the past um and and domain expertise in different uh areas that you know the sum of the of the individuals is is greater than the number of the individuals itself if you will.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, that makes sense. I think just picking up on one point there. Um you mentioned that you know you understand and appreciate and actually value investing in early stage scrappy businesses that haven't actually got it all figured out and and by all probably you know the vast majority of the obstacles are still ahead. The all of the storms have have yet to been you know yet to be weathered.

How did Orisa get to that point of comfort with that because it is in my view quite unique in Dubai still. So independent of Dubai because our like we are a fundamentalist VC and if there's hype then we don't jump on that hype. If there's FOMO we tend not to jump on that FOMO. we do our due diligence. You know, we like to make sure that we've uh really evaluated every nook and cranny of of said business in front of us, whether it's tribe or another startup, and whether that's a preede all the way through to series B.

In fact, series A and B, arguably the odds are much uh you know, much uh the risk is is perhaps a little bit higher because we're dealing with such bigger checks. Um and so ultimately we will never have 100% conviction. VC itself is an outlier model. We we >> the LPs in in VC the limited partners uh command and demand outlier returns. Otherwise you can just put your money into commodities or into the market or or property perhaps.

Um, and so as a result of that, we're looking for outlier opportunities, outlier potential, getting in early and doubling down for the 7 to 10 year journey that this may be. And and so we didn't have 100% conviction in tribe. I don't think we've ever had a 100% conviction in any startup we've invested in, >> but we had enough conviction to warrant, let's get in early and see how this unfolds.

And since we've invested till now, the progress and the growth velocity have has already been uh very very positive. I don't want to say monumental, but it's it's heading in the right direction. So hopefully we got it right. Um and then you know then we could start to look at doubling down and really cementing our position or growing our position on the cap table. Um I if the opportunity presents itself, >> do you think that Dubai needs more sandboxes like sandbox programs like orayers?

I think the risk appetite for preeding and seed investment is low as in the volume of of of VCs and large angel syndicates possibly investing at preede and seed is perhaps lower than um lower than it could be lower than our counterparts in in other geographies around the world and I can understand why Because property particularly oil um and and the stock market have been so predictable and back tested and reliable that family offices and other uh sovereign wealth funds are happy to and have been fairly predictably putting their money there for a long time.

So it makes no sense to necessarily rock the boat. But if if someone is looking for that outlier return then they have to be prepared to take that early stage risk. >> Yeah. >> And Oria that's what we that's what we endeavor to do. We made we made 25 investments in 2025 2025. We made 24 investments in 2024 as I alluded to probably 60 to 70% of those deals were at the early stage. >> Yeah.

smaller checks, albeit, but um but we have to in order for us to be able to double down into the winners at series A and B, we have to be getting in early in in uh in preed and seed. Also, the VC model is such that you know a lot there are a lot of u VC funded startups around the world that don't make it. they don't return anything of course. >> And so if the risk appetite of an investor is to put capital in with a expectation and a and a almost a predictable outcome then VC is not for them.

>> Yeah. >> If they recognize actually I'm not going to invest in one startup. I'm going to build a portfolio. I'm going to manage that portfolio and understand the risk involved associated to managing a portfolio and and deploying into a portfolio of say 30 50 100 startups then they've got better odds. >> Yeah. >> Do I think there can be more uh like more more funds like Oura?

Sure. That's never going to be a bad thing. We're we're actively investing with all of the uh main names in in the VC landscape, not just in the UAE, but around the region. And um it's good to see more and more creep up as well. Yeah, I think the reason for my question is we're we're a member of Dubai Founders HQ which is just literally over the road here in the 25H hotel and there's a huge desire from you know the government from a top- down approach to drive innovation to drive the startup ecosystem but equally that's met with a huge desire by a huge number of people to start ventures right typically technology ventures even more so in AI in recent times and you mentioned kind of hypes cycles and whatnot.

But in order for those ventures to either get off the ground or continue flying, capital is typically required. And the program we went through with Sandbox or ASA gave you the insights over a prolonged period of time that didn't make due diligence feel like due diligence because often times the due diligence process is is like many other processes here in Dubai. And I think people that are listening from Dubai and have been in Dubai will understand when I say this in that the process lacks the very essence of the word.

Meaning no clear beginning, no clear middle and no clear end. Right? There might be 15 steps but you learn step by step whether it's forward, left, right, back, up, down, you know, and you're you're you're juggling, you're dancing, you're doing everything. With the sandbox program, it was very clear. You've got eight weeks. You've got to get this done. you got to meet this person, you got to get this report done.

>> And there's no guarantee at the end that you'll get you'll get investment, >> you will be better off for it as a as an investable business. >> Mhm. >> And I guess the point I'm making is that if you if you walk into Dubai Founders HQ now, it's absolutely packed. And that's one like c one campus, it's not a small campus, but one campus in the grand scheme of Dubai with hundreds of founders and hundreds of ventures that are being built.

>> Mh. but only one oraya, right? And I'm not saying that to blow smoke up of your, you know, backside, but more to the point that I just think we need more of what you guys are doing if we're going to grow the ecosystem as quickly and as and as uh efficiently as as we possibly could. Otherwise, it's then a it's then a game of survival of the fittest as opposed to those that can innovate the most or or whatever.

And I think that's where Dubai still has a little bit of a way to go. Um and and you know the whole point of sharing this journey is to say that >> building a business is not easy. >> Uh it's not quick, it's not cheap. Um and raising capital is also one of the hardest things you can possibly do here. And and whilst the founders and the and the startups have to do everything on their side, I think the ecosystem and the and the venture space also needs to um unlock different ways of moving the needle a little bit quicker.

Do you disagree? Do you agree? What's your >> do I agree or disagree? Um more capital is never a bad thing. More access to capital particularly at the early stages for startups is never a bad thing. But there's a difference to just having capital freely available and money growing on trees than um than making it difficult to to attain in that founders need to know what venture commands and the business model of venture.

And I think that we spend a good amount of time for free on a proono basis upskilling founders, welcoming them, welcoming them to our office, often multiple times a week just to help them recognize what it means to raise venture and and the expectations and journey that that they're kind of setting foot on. >> Um, so if capital was widely available and everyone had it, I don't think that would be the solution.

>> Just to be clear, I I'm not saying the the market should be flooded with capital. What I'm saying is exactly actually what you've just said. You've just said it way better than I was able to in that there's often a a disconnect from the very beginning in terms of understanding each other's expectations. Right. And the thing that OSA have done very well is is um deployed information >> to founders to help them on their journey which may or may not involve raising capital but for most of the venture builders it it will require raising capital at some point >> and by bridging that delta early on conversations are made way easier.

Like I'm grateful from the program because the conversations I now have with other VCs are more efficient. um you know we're connected way way earlier and why why I'm saying I think there's more orayas are required because you guys can only take on 20 startups per cohort right there's a capacity that you have but actually hundreds of startups need that knowledge need that guidance to get themselves ready to raise capital I'm not even talking about raising capital itself I'm saying that readiness aspect and that's why I think there's a there's a still a gap in the market to be filled that you guys have absolutely paved the way for others.

A bit like, you know, the the first tokenized uh real estate platform paved the way for us. I think you guys have definitely done the same. >> Cool. No, I'm grateful to hear that. Um and we endeavor to make great investment decisions based upon the opportunities that presented to us. And that's why we remain sector agnostic. And if our efforts help founders whether we invest or not and or help inspire VCs that are either in the region or expanding into the region then that's only a benefit that's only a positive thing but again it's a sort of a byproduct of our efforts like we're we are we're looking for good opportunities at the end of the day.

Uh in just a couple of things to to that I was I was writing down as you were saying there um we're looking for quality over quantity. So 20 is a a rough number for each cohort. It could be more, it could be less. And this prolonged period of time for fundraising and the ambiguity around it, not just here, but around the world is something that we want to kind of, you know, really uh make a thing of the past.

>> And and so that's why Sandbox in its capacity is is very transparent. It's fast and it's very clear on what the expectations are at the beginning, the middle, the end and and thereafter. And I would I would like to think that we are from the start of joining the program to your investment committee decision perhaps one of the most transparent and one of the quickest institutional VCs around and if that can encourage other VCs to also you know at least outline their their process or or their their timelines for the startups then it can it can it can benefit it can be beneficial to all.

>> Y >> the other thing is the preparedness. So you alluded to some of the insights from that you that you picked up from Sandbox and and and from your time with us as part of our portfolio now that help you make your future conversations with VCs more efficient, more effective. But ultimately I would put that down to like you are a more prepared. You're a more investment ready founder.

you know how to approach this the process the expectations of the process far better than perhaps before you like we can take you so far in terms of knowledge and insight like what what happens behind the scenes and we and we actively share that >> with our portfolio founders but also with members of the ecos startup ecosystem that we haven't invested in yet. Um but as a founder or a founding team it's really up to you guys to implement some of said knowledge or insights and I think what tribe do quite well is you are actively ex constantly expanding your network not out of a desire to have more people in your network but your p your pursuit and for knowledge and wisdom and curiosity for learning and access >> is that that fire continues to burn like extremely strongly.

>> Certainly does. >> And the conversion from acquiring that network and that knowledge to implementing and accessing and applying some of that knowledge and network is very high. And I I I see that being a very good trait of yours that is very calculated, very deliberate. Some information you'll deliberately um not act on, but you've made that deliberate, thoughtful choice not to. and much information.

You were intentional about finding it, you received it, you then implement and and action within days or weeks. And um that deliberate nature of how you're approaching what you're building is also, you know, a testament to your readiness. It doesn't just happen doesn't just happen overnight. It happens from, you know, your efforts as well. >> No, absolutely. I think one one other point just to to draw on there around connectivity in that you know again one of the hardest things for founders to navigate here in Dubai is who to speak to.

who to speak to, how to find them, how to approach them, how to then open the conversation. And one of the great things and actually unexpected benefits of the sandbox program was um the investor roundts or breakfast um I can't remember what what they were called exactly but you know you would bring in managing partners or partners from different funds and >> and and they would have a an open conversation not just about the fund but about themselves their backgrounds their families their hobbies or whatever and And it just it again it was like a a a neutralizing effect that made it a fre

e flowing and these conversations were sometimes gone for nearly 2 hours which I think is a testament to one you know the caliber of the the guest who was speaking uh you know the the partner or managing partner of whatever fund but two how you had enabled that conversation to just naturally and organically flow because everybody felt like they deserve to be there and felt comfortable to ask frankly any question.

Um, which I think is a huge benefit to to us and to others who've gone on to have multiple, you know, subsequent conversations with those with those VCs or those funds or or those um those partners. So, I think that was that was really good. Um, so sticking on Dubai for a little bit uh before we kind of you know wrap up um why is why is Dubai um uniquely positioned for a business like what we're building here with Tribe?

Um and I think critically again from a a a radical transparency perspective where does it um where does it still fall short? >> So Dubai is a great place for tribe today I believe and arguably the UAE more broadly because >> yeah I would agree >> the fundamentals of the UAE and what it's achieved in the matter of two to three decades >> uh is ridiculous. It's fast, right? It's rapid.

I don't think I've ever experienced anything like that uh anywhere in the world. And and and I can say that with lived experience. I moved here in 2002. >> Um and so it's a pleasure to still be here as a professional contributing back to the startup e economy in the capacity that that has unfolded. Um and and and over the past you know three decades what we've seen is the rate of infrastructure being deployed the number of schools universities that are being set up and and established.

the amount of housing uh the quality and volume of health care that is accessible to uh to all of the to you know the residents here is is unparalleled and so Dubai has and the UAE has done a really terrific job at at making its vision a reality. >> Yeah. And often every every sort of five to 10 years there's a there's a vision that is outlined. I mean there's a Dubai 20 D33 vision which is not far away now.

there's a Dubai 2040 vision which is widely available for anyone to see uh online and so you can sort of see where the direction of the city and also where the of the country and where it's heading and the intention and so it's rare to have such um such long you know multi-deade outlooks with a proven uh >> record of achievement. Yeah. >> Proven record of achievement. Exactly. >> Took the words out of my mouth.

um inevitably there's going to be growth pains when you are scaling a city or a country so quickly you're becoming such a magnet and those growth pains are are to be expected. Um going back to your f earlier question could there be room for you know more orers in the in the ecosystem perhaps so according to your opinion but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Yeah, >> it might happen.

It probably will happen. That's if you look at the the growth velocity and the indicators of where things are heading. Um I imagine there will be more Oraia capitals in 3 to 5 years. 3 to 5 years in the grand scheme of of venture is not very long. >> So um yeah, that's why I think Dubai is a a really great place for Tribe at the moment. >> No, I agree. Uh we wouldn't we wouldn't build it anywhere else.

Um again from a regulation perspective it's incredible. Um you know going through the vir process has has not just been rigorous because it has to be um but it should be and the people that have guided us through it both from var side and any other kind of advisory side has also been you know world class like genuinely great people incredibly intelligent incredibly knowledgeable. I think that goes across different sectors, right?

You meet so many great people here. Like you said, from a connectivity perspective, you can learn so much so quickly purely by having a coffee. And >> I went to another kind of networking event last night and and people were saying the same thing is that it's very rare when someone will say no to a coffee. Yet back in England or other places around the world, it's very hard to get people to commit to doing anything um in person.

Um I'd say where where it falls short and you uh you dodged that part of the question very nicely so I'll answer it for you. Um you know >> growing pains >> growing pains yeah for yeah that was a broad strokes. I'll give you some examples. Um you know company setup here took way longer and we had to go through way more different you know several different authorities uh different economic zones if you will.

I think there's a big opportunity still for that to be more efficient, uh, cheaper, right? When I started my first company in in the UK in 2009, I set it up online one evening in 20 minutes, it cost £25 and I got a bank account with it instantly. That was 2009. Um, here we still don't get that speed of um, company, incorporation, bank account opening, and I get why. Obviously, we're building a a fully regulated business with, you know, pretty intense KYC ourselves, but we're now onboarding customers into the Tribe app when we go live um in seconds, maybe 1 to two minutes, right?

I'm quite confident that companies can be set up and bank accounts can be open for companies in that kind of time. We bank have done an incredible job. they're innovating. Fantastic. But I think there's still a way to go to allow that speed of innovation. Um because if you don't have a bank account, you can't operate. Um so I think that's been a big uh a big obstacle that I've written about quite a lot.

You know, people know, you know, have heard me heard me vent about it a lot. And I would love to contribute to fixing it. I think that's more more importantly the point. It's not just criticizing it. It's saying >> this is where it's not currently working. This is how we can do it better. Let's all help to to you know contribute if and >> so perhaps >> the future of tribe is a neo bank.

>> Well say we'll say no more on the matter. Let's see that maybe that's your prediction. Um okay just uh just I also I just want to want to add there like >> Dubai is a great place for the U is a great place because there's 190 plus nationalities. So it's a great place to test things. You don't know if your product, whatever you're building is going to land with the upper class uh Indian population, the middle class American population, the middle class Japanese population, but they're all here.

Yeah. And so you can test that and then once you have uh you know some form of indication that there is traction with said ICP, said ideal customer profile, you can then double down into that geography or expand that with deliberate uh intent. That's uh that's a massive game changer. >> Yeah, I think that's a great point. >> The diversity of of of people here, cultures, backgrounds, ethnicities is also uh a melting pot for opportunity.

>> But I think people just want to win. >> Yeah. >> You know, whatever they're doing here, they want to win. They they want they're willing to work hard. They're willing to get that coffee because >> they they recognize that it could unlock another door that helps them, whatever it may be. Um, and maybe not, but at least they're trying. And I feel like there's a a very strong macro winning mentality in in the UAE, which% which is >> blossomed from a grassroots level, but also comes from the vision of the leadership.

>> So, you know, they're very complimentary. >> Yeah. And even little things like you can have a coffee with someone on a on a Wednesday at 8:00 PM because the coffee shops are still open and the malls are still open. And like that that winning mentality comes from the top down. Absolutely. But like you say, it's also met from the the bottom up. Like people want to continue working or meet for a meeting at a weekend or go for a coffee and you know at an evening or go to a networking event that they weren't quite sure about but then left.

I'm glad I did it. Um so no I completely agree with you that mentality that is here is in very few places elsewhere around the world. Um so yeah we're very grateful and and again great to be surrounded by by kind of so many like-minded people. So um as we begin to wrap up uh this uh unbelievable conversation um what advice would you give to uh founders um early stage founders raising capital whether that's from Orisa or you know angels or anywhere critically um before the metrics or the traction of the business whether you want to call it product market fit um is obvious.

So for businesses like tribe where we were pre-licicensed, pre-revenue, pre-product launch, pre- go to market, pre pretty much everything, you know, what what advice would you give specifically to those founders? The biggest skill set you can enhance and hone in on at any stage, particularly idea stage or pre-MVP or pre-traction stage, is storytelling. the ability to own the attention of an audience, narrate one's vision and take said audience in this case investors on that journey so that they can imagine being there alongside you is something that will uh you know will help you for for life if you will and you'll always lean upon that.

So that would be a really important one. I on that note I see a lot of early stage founders assuming that I've worked with them at the hip for three or four years >> when I've just met them four minutes ago. >> Yeah. And so they're taking me into such deep technical details of their product >> with the assumption that I know the macroeconomic environment that I know the their niche within in the uh competitive landscape and I don't >> and so I would urge founders to really start high level and think and and and basically gently guide the audience or the investor to the solution and then to the product.

On that note, I see a lot of founders love and obsess and become very emotive over their product. I would urge founders to love and obsess and become worldclass domain experts in their problem domain. the problem. By doing that, their problem domain is going to help them influence influence every understanding the problem domain is going to help influence every decision they make pertaining to hiring, firing, fundraising, product development, expansion, legals, governance, IP.

Um, and if they are if they love and obsess over their problem domain, they become sort of agnostic to their hypothesis, which is their solution, their lens on how they solve the problem. and then really completely agnostic to their um to their product because that product is going to evolve today, tomorrow, next week, then it's going to be that they're going to be able to make iterations much quicker.

Basically, flipping it on the head. I see a lot of founders love and obsess over the over the product and they're a little bit nonchalant about the problem and then the solution, their lens on the problem sit somewhere in the middle. I would suggest flipping where that love emotion and domain expertise is into the problem. I'd also consider founder and market fit which is an interesting one like >> if you are building a fintech have you any financial or accounting or banking experience in the past.

>> Y >> um and if you haven't that's not a problem necessarily. Have you got great people on board advisor mentors co-founders colleagues senior leadership who can plug those gaps? founder market fit is is a big one. And then I would another piece of advice I would give is just professionalism. Early stage investment is about conviction. >> Mhm. >> And if we haven't got six or 12 months of backdated recurring revenue and phenomenal growth rates month and waiting list and >> retention increasing, um, attrition decreasing, CAT decreasing, all of these things.

Then what we do have to evaluate is a person or people in front of us >> and one's demeanor, professionalism, charisma, forthcomingness, willingness to showcase one's strength, willingness to recognize where one falls short, his or her coachability, trustworthiness, transparency can be evaluated. Yeah. And those are things that I would urge founders to recognize are being assessed if not more than the problem statement and the solution in the product at the early stages than at least equal to.

And that would be some advice that I would say founders overlook. >> I hope all of the listeners have gotten to this point because that's unbelievable advice. So thank you. Um, and then what would you say are the key benefits other than capital? Because as we mentioned, not everybody gets to that point through the Sandbox program. But if anyone is at this point and they're listening and they're thinking about applying to Sandbox, what are the the non-obvious benefits, if you will, >> or the secondary benefits?

>> So capital is clearly the first one. Y >> but the carrot at the end of the stick isn't the first check. With Oracia Capital, we have the ability to reinvest and double down and support from preede to your seed to your pre-a to your A to your preb. Maybe you do a bridge and then your B. Um in theory, of course, we would evaluate the opportunity uh at each at each milestone. Beyond that network, >> network is as you can uh can recognize is arguably your network is your net worth and um the access that a VC like Oraier or otherwise can give you is really really important to factor in.

also knowledge. You know, are the VCs uh domain not experts in your in your industry? Possibly so if they're industry specific, perhaps not if they're sector agnostic, but maybe they have access to people who can also help guide you um in domain expertise concerns or more generalistic concerns like fundraising, like communication, like uh strategy and growth and expansion and things. Um, the other thing I would say is the portfolio, the broader portfolio.

If a if a VC has an existing portfolio of founders, and a founder is seeking to apply to said VC for fundraising, it's probably worthwhile him or her doing their due diligence by speaking to a couple of those portfolio founders, those existing portfolio founders, and getting their opinion. Yeah. What are the pros? What are the cons? Um, what are the benefits? Where is the value? And um the larger the portfolio arguably the larger the network or that of of of existing founders that new founders can access.

>> Yeah. >> And then perks. Uh VCs often have uh a load of perks and partnerships with credit providers and various um software houses um around the world for which startups could you know really benefit from and avail. That would that would be it. But in summary, you want to be working as a founder, but also as a VC. And ironically, it's you know, there seems to be such a divide, but actually both people want compat compatibility with one another that you can call in the good times and hear about the successes, the accolades, and the milestones, >> but more importantly, that you could call in the bad times and, you know, have >> uh a grounded sense of wisdom, a grounded sense of guidance.

uh at at the very least a listening ear if not some form of um potential solution to to to that difficulty because as I've said earlier it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when that storm is weathered and probably multiple storms. >> Yeah, I have no doubt uh and experience tells me that that's absolutely the case. Um for me the one of the uh biggest and unexpected I don't know why it was unexpected but benefits of the Orusair uh capital sandbox program was um meeting other founders both from the cohort we were in but also previous cohorts and then ultimately going on to do business together.

Um so we're working with Prop AI for example one of the you know previous cohorts. um >> great >> you know and integrating that into not just our customerf facing app but also our asset selection process so a significant impact on the business >> but also the meeting of great minds in the sense of you know Renee and the team at at propai are brilliant people and it's always a pleasure to work with other brilliant people same with the guys from cap quest for cap table management and these are all things that you know would have been on the horizon but kind of way further down the road but it got accelerated because we got to meet those people so quickly and and get to know them,

you know, you know, uh, I guess on a more intimate basis, particularly on a business level than what you would have done otherwise. So, um, I think that was definitely the biggest, um, non-obvious benefit of of joining the program. Great. Um, >> delighted to hear that. And so um as we conclude today's episode on uh capital and conviction at at such an early stage um you have mentioned there's a number of storms ahead um so thank you for that.

Uh we look forward to uh the choppy waters um that that lie ahead but we're building this in public. We've made that commitment from day one. Um you mentioned around storytelling. Um, we, you know, we call it building in public, but ultimately it's just being honest, right? Honest that, like you say, not everything always goes to plan or indeed very rarely does it go to plan or on time. Um, that you have to be adaptable.

We will make some great hires. We will make some [ __ ] ones. There will be some difficult conversations. Capital raising will be a con, you know, a constant theme throughout uh as we grow and as we grow and as we grow. So, you know, that's why we're here today to continue that that layer or actually build on that layer of transparency. Um, and so I would like for you to look ahead through those choppy waters perhaps into the the light of of, you know, at the end of a tunnel, you know, for Tribe and what does the road ahead look like in your view for Tribe in the market we're in, the time that we're in, the the position we're in as a preede to seed stage business, a preIPA to operationally live regulated entity, a technology, you know, business at our absolute core.

Um and importantly, as you've mentioned, we are building a real estate investment uh platform that enables more people to access better investment grade uh assets that are more liquid. With all of that said, what lies ahead? What could you give me what you think one opportunity for Tribe is and one obstacle? I could um I shall try. I'll summarize it with the ambition that I don't know I'll caveat it first of all with I don't know how long this might be.

It could be 2 3 years. It could be 5 years and it could be longer. Hopefully sooner >> with the anticipation and and hope that tribe becomes a relative household name. >> Mhm. >> In the region. If not in the region then hopefully internationally. >> Hope so. Um, and that would be a really great Eureka milestone. It wouldn't necessarily be an accolade that can be identified with number of website visits or, you know, how many people are investing and the the the amount of capital that's coming in each month and the number of properties that you're onboarding, etc.

Yeah, >> that can all be tracked. >> But just speaking to a random person on the street or in the mall or at an event and be like, "Oh, you use Tribe? Yep, I use Tribe. I've heard of that." I think that will be really cool. Um and I look forward to that materializing. Um as we say inshallah the interesting opportunity is that you have an opportunity to create for for tribe is creating a win-winwin scenario and possibly a win-win win-win scenario.

A win for the retail investors who previously haven't had access to this asset class >> uh in in such an accessible manner. and hopefully them, you know, being able to be paid out and and yield um and yield uh growth. The second is a win for the landlords or the property owners being able to make returns in a different capacity to short-term rentals, long-term rentals or otherwise. The third win is to your stakeholders and investors on board to tribe like Oracia Capital and others.

And um by being in a position to create wins for multiple stakeholders, >> yeah, >> you're creating likability, you're creating trust, you're creating stick uh stickiness, and so that that's uh a great opportunity. In terms of the road ahead and some challenges, I anticipate you'll have to kiss a few frogs. uh whether that's hiring someone that or people that you think are great and it doesn't work out.

That would be >> uh probably inevitable, but you're mindful of it. And I think you've done that in the past um ventures that you've run as well. >> I think you want to be thinking about ensuring you can get to a level of or close to profitability as soon as possible. Yeah, >> that financial diligence and how regimented you are around cash in cash out will say a lot to the broader market, particularly assisting or hindering your future fundraising efforts, I would say.

>> Very good. Well, we're going to look back at this in 6 12 18 24 months time and hopefully uh some of your predictions have come correct. Uh Alistister certainly our CMO and co-founder will be delighted to hear your uh future vision of Tri being a household brand name. Sure. >> And that's definitely a shared vision. You know, we've invested time, care more than anything and and depth of thought into the brand from from day one.

Um and we continue to that will never stop. Uh so yeah, brand is definitely uh >> one of the moes that we want to build. So I certainly hope that comes true and and yeah I don't disagree with anything you've just said. Um and yeah from a discipline perspective we're very lucky we have the likes of Dennis uh from a a finance uh you know side of the the spectrum. Benoir who's recently joined us on on head of compliance um you know overseen by Seb who's >> you know as black and white and blunt as the as the you know day is long.

So, uh, so yeah, we have all of those kind of guard rails in place and yeah, ultimately now it's just keep keep pushing and and let's see where we get to. Um, Elliot, the fact that you're here, uh, and have agreed to come and sit down and do this is a testament both to you and your character and Orisa and you know, Orisa is both a um, a venture capital investor uh, a community, an ecosystem builder and enabler.

Um so thank you first of all for for joining us. Um you know it was a a real pleasure to go through the sandbox program. It's a pleasure to now have Orisa on the cap table and obviously the support we've had from yourself from Goose from Omar from Julian has been phenomenal from day one. Um and again we don't know where it's going to go. U and I think you know you've been very clear in that you know nothing is certain >> and we really do appreciate and respect that that transparency and that honesty that or give not just to us but to all of the members of the various cohorts and even the applicants that don't even make it uh frankly.

So so thank you very much for joining us here on BlockbyBlock and uh we look forward to having you or one of the other members of the team back in the future. >> Excellent. Thanks for having me.