How Do Founders Raise Capital Without Losing Their Equity?

Are you kidding me? >> Yeah, I know. I know. >> Exactly. Most founders have that exact reaction. >> Who made these rules? >> There needs to be a better way to do this. >> That is the kill switch. >> It is. It is it >> if you don't get it right. >> Absolutely. >> Fundraising, capital management is central to this. >> A lot of founders make mistakes at this stage.

>> Wow. >> Capital management is domain that not a lot of founders have experience with. We help manage their ownership, model dilution, and really maintain control of their equity. Are you the only solution in the market? >> We're built in the region. >> Cap table management was almost a manual. >> Multiple sheets as you can imagine. Quite exact 100%. Don't get me wrong, we thought long and hard about it.

Okay. >> Began looking for a solution that could automate this process. You have more esops in place. You have more safes to convert. You have more pools, right? You know, investors wanted to constantly understand how much do I effectively own at this stage. You sell the business tomorrow for let's say $3 million. Uh then >> I get two and the rest is distributed amongst founders and other people.

>> Why as a founder would I sign up for that? >> That's a very good question. >> It's a negotiation. >> That's predatory. Sorry. >> Capital is no longer cheap, right? If I participate in this round, if I don't, what's going to be my impact? I need to receive back too regardless of what you sell it for. >> Whatever capital you deploy actually gets you to profitability and therefore raising capital becomes more a strategic choice.

>> Exactly. That that's a position that you want to be a position of strength always 100%. >> Will you invest >> in a token? >> I would invest in token. Yes. >> Good. Great. >> 100%. Absolutely. >> Founding tribe member here. >> Yeah. Good. >> Yeah. >> Welcome to Blockby um covering the future of finance. Today we have Marco, co-founder from uh Kquest.

Yep. >> I'm excited about how this conversation will go. Today we're going to talk all things fundraising, cap table management, and obviously building in Dubai. >> Yeah. >> Um, welcome. >> Thank you, man. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. So, before we actually talk a bit more about who you are and you know what cockquest is about. >> Sure.

>> I recall that we met around this this period of time. >> Yeah. >> Dubai Fintech Summit. >> Correct. Right. >> That's right. >> So, honestly, when I met you and you mentioned I asked you what what are you in and then you said cap table management? I'm like, yeah. Okay. I wasn't too sure what that was, but there was funny but there there's where we met right first time and then secondly we met at um >> Ora one of the how do you call this it sandbox >> sandbox program.

Exactly. >> Um so that was actually quite funny that we met there. We're now working together >> 100%. I mean now now only you're a client but a partner as well too. So awesome to have to be here as well. >> Right. It's a small world. It is honestly I saw you walk into and I said hold on >> I met you a year ago. uh very different context and the time you were in consulting as well too.

>> Uh but awesome to see that you've joined this side of things and other building in Dubai as well too man. >> It's fabulous and honestly since I've started with tribe understanding fundraising cap cap table management >> has skyrocketed. Yeah. >> Right. I mean obviously the other side of the table I had some insight but being an operator is totally different. Right. And we're going to talk about some of these things but before we do that I'm sure we all want to know who's Marco.

>> Yeah. And then afterwards we'll cover cover capquest. But first, who is Marco? Tell us more about you. >> Awesome. Yeah. So again, thanks for having me here. Pleasure. So as you mentioned, Mark, I'm co-founder Capquest and I lead product development within the company. As we all do at this stage, wearing multiple hats, right? So as you know, also involved in some of the commercial roles here and business development as well too.

>> The perks of being a builder. >> The perks of being a builder. Exactly. 100%. Uh but predominantly focused on on the product side of things. um initially from Brazil. Yeah. >> Uh but I've been uh now in Dubai for close to 7 years and I've been in the product space for 14. Okay. Operated across different verticals from prop tech to gaming to food tech as well too. >> Okay.

You went quite fast. Born and raised in Brazil. >> That's right. Yeah. Born and raised. >> How's Brazil look? >> Good. Amazing man. I recall talking about you know tribe is a property tokenization platform and so in the blockchain space I do recall that guess Brazil was one of the first jurisdictions to allow or adopt crypto right there quite a number of crypto exchanges there right tremendously absolutely there a lot of companies operating that in that space and even if you look at stable coin adaptation as well too adoption rather uh that's growing tremendously throughout throughout the country uh for you know crossber payments Brazil's leading the front in that as well So for sure and you know tremendous real estate uh ecosystem as well too.

So maybe the next step for you guys. >> Yeah. Maybe next step after you. After you. >> There you go. Exactly man. >> Um funny thing. >> Yeah. >> Whenever people ask me where's my wife from? >> I always tell them she's from a country next to Brazil. >> Why? Because they never know where Serinam is. But everyone knows where Brazil is. >> There we go. There we go.

>> There we go. What brought you in UAE? >> So actually long story short, I went to high school here actually many years ago. Um, you know, kind of the expat story. My father was CEO here for a very large Brazilian uh multinational. >> Still exists. >> Still exists. Yeah. Yeah. >> What is it? >> It's called Sadia. So Sadia, so it's in the poetry space essentially.

Yeah. So he led that here for for a long time. >> Um, and I went to high school here and I think I have to say that my generation kind of we were the first first cohort of kids who who came to Dubai but stayed, right? So a lot of a lot of parents grew their roots here and stayed. And so I went to college in the states. Then I moved back to Brazil um where I began my career in product management but um but I always had a calling to come back and I had a lot of friends that stayed and so I did a bit of a sbatical.

I came here in 2017 a lot of people and uh yeah I had a calling to come back and so I came back and my my journey there continued in product and different different verticals here as well too. >> Okay nice. Uh you also shortly covered you know the different industries you were covering. Could you walk us through the industries you have been involved in? You know, what products you have you have developed?

We just want to understand profile. Yeah, for sure. So, I began my career uh working in propt tech in Brazil actually. Um Brazil. >> Oh, so you started with prop tech. >> Started with prop tech. Yeah. More more in the real estate search engine element of things. >> You know, Brazil was and continues to be, you know, a powerhouse in a sense in terms of it's a huge market. We were just talking about the fact that Brazil is one of those >> those countries where you can you can build a unicorn operating just one single country, right?

It's really really massive 200 million plus people and the prop tech space property rather within the real estate search engine is quite fragmented in Brazil and so there's a lot of potential to be done there. So I began working in a prop tech in in Brazil uh operating there. I quickly after a few years moved into mobile gaming actually okay Brazil was and continues to be again very very active in this.

A lot of gaming companies actually use Brazil as a launch pad for some of their games. So they'll test the games there. you know, it's a very gaming centered uh uh the youth is is super into this, right? Um and so yeah, began working in mobile gaming, but that was a firsthand experience really into building games and products really that scale that had, you know, hundreds of millions of global dollars.

>> What type of games are we talking about? >> These are casual word games within within the mobile space, right? So, um not as you know, hip and new as as you know, what the kids are playing today, for sure. But definitely, you know, from an LTV perspective, from monetization perspective, very interesting because you're looking at >> older thresholds in terms of of people that you're focusing on, right?

Correct. Uh, at the time, more disposable income and things of this nature. But really, my firstand experience into building products at scale. Um, so games we worked on there had, you know, hundreds of millions of downloads around the world. >> Wow. >> Um, yeah. And then I I moved back to Dubai actually, as I mentioned, 2018. A very strong calling. I I love the city. I love the environments and uh I love the ecosystem that was here and uh my journey continued there working also in building a food tech um in the food tech space here.

Yeah. So we worked on an application focused um actually in in the restaurant loyalty space >> and uh for that kind of the journey invariably led to to capest because in that we we raised uh a few different rounds. We had a lot of employees that had RSU planned and the complications began there and our CFO and my CEO today was managed at the cap table at the time >> and that's where the complexity that's how we met and that's how >> this is a great segue actually because now we've entered into Cap Quest.

Exactly. >> So tell us more about that origin story of Cap Quest. >> Of course. So as I mentioned you know we were previously at a company I was leading product and he was the CFO and GM >> and you know >> and how did you guys meet by the way? >> We met at that company. I was leading product and he was uh he was >> Antoine. >> As Antoine. Exactly. Yep. He was our CFO and and and general manager and he was managing the captive.

>> Okay. >> And after you know years of fundraising after raising a considerable amount and having uh a lot of employees as I mentioned with ESOPs and everything it got really complicated to manage right and it became >> like a paper trail >> paper trail excel all of that right and frankly um you know he had to manage that on a monthly basis. He had to get it up up to date. He had you know a lot of operational hurdles around that and he thought to himself that there needs to be a better way to do this kind of the old origin story as you said >> at the time you kno

w there were you know few players if any in this space and and there was obviously from what did exist we found that really did not adhere to the local nuances of what we needed right >> um price-wise obviously it was of course outside of what we were and many companies in the region were willing to pay um but more than anything we found that it was not localized to the region to the pain points that we felt as founders and we felt as operators in this space.

Right? So he always knew there was a potential there to build something that was very different um that again follow the requirements and needs of the local ecosystem and of local founders as well too. Right. So we set up we put our brains together we decided to to to uh put our brains together. Exactly. So I'll tell you a bit about him as well and our third co-founder as well. But before you do that, we really want to know how much do you guys raise?

Just give me a range. >> Uh right now, >> no, for the the food company, >> for the previous one, we raised over the course of I think 5 years, like north of $10 million. >> $10 million. And >> like you explained, cap table management was almost a manual. >> It it was a manual process. It was it was Excel, you know, with multiple sheets as you can imagine, right? And uh but what was at the time I think with the big challenge was that you know investors wanted to constantly understand what was their change in their equity in their capital in the business becau

se after so many rounds you have you know you have dilution you have you know you have maybe some secondaries that happen you have of course employee pools that are added and that dilutes everyone as well. So the end picture right uh of of equity became more difficult to understand as as the rounds went on and a lot of investors wanted this transparency and understanding okay hold on how much do I effectively own at this stage.

Um and that question you know it increased the more stakeholders that you have in the company and of course the the the underlying math and logic behind everything became increasingly so more complex right and so really became an operational hurdle for him right not only cap table but investor relations of managing kind of this back and forth of understanding of constantly having to send updated you know spreadsheets and everything >> so help us understand so Antoine your co-founder now um quite an operational burden to keep cap table management and you know in order for the stakeholders

at that point in time right >> was that his only job or >> no uh no that was that was part of his job but it consumed quite >> frustratingly so exactly began consuming a tremendous amount of his time um and we began looking for solutions that that could automate this process and we really weren't satisfied with what existed right but to answer your question yeah I mean it became uh you know a weekly activity that he had to focus on and very annoying >> so when did capquest originally or originally officially got incorporated.

>> Yeah. So uh that was two years ago. We officially incorporated um but that was kind of you know what we did when we first uh began this journey really. We wanted to build a solution that adhered to as not not only the needs of kind of the local community but we also made sure to interview actually you know close to 70 CFOs and CEOs of both early stage growth stage and enterprise level companies around the world.

around the world not all the regions and uh we were able to have exposure luckily to to CEOs and CFOs of actually preipo companies as well who themselves were managing their capital believe it or not on excels right to very early stage preo stage preipo stage it's it's quite shocking 100% 100% this point you have hundreds of stakeholders right very very difficult to to to maintain to automate um but you'll be surprised that happens quite quite often actually >> and um >> yeah so we we set out kind of a very important design journey where we spoke to and interviewed as I mentioned y

ou know close to 70 75 >> you know CEOs and CFOs across the region and internationally as well too right to understand what were the pain points of both early stage growth stage and enterprise level companies to really make sure that we were building a product that felt um that understood these pain points and adhered to these as well. So to really bridge this gap between uh what founders needed to know and and and you know the technicalities around cap tables um and that's what we did you know we it was more than more than a year of of a design journey between speaking to different foun

ders and speaking to CFOs really the operators behind this right a lot of times initially you know as a founder you're the one that's doing this but at one point you reach a scale where you delegate this as a CFO as well too right so we end up speaking to a lot of CFOs as well too to exactly understand what those pain points Sure. Um yeah to to build a solution that would scale as the company scales as well too.

>> Okay, sounds good. Um so we will cover fundraising in quite >> you know detail >> sure >> detail form. We'll also cover what what I would love to cover is some of these uh operational challenges you're talking about. So before we do that one more question regarding Capqu Quest. Can you give us an overview of the types of clients you're servicing? um the industries they're in, maybe some size absolutely um parameters so that we can understand, you know, where you actually fit within the whole ecosystem.

>> Absolutely. So I'm going to take one step back and explain what Capqu Quest kind of is and what it encompasses and I'm happy to answer that question as well. >> So Capqu Quest is a cap table and investor relations management platform, right? And at its core, we help founders really manage their ownership, model dilution, uh and really maintain control of their equity as they scale, right?

So as company scales like tribe right um you know >> so does so do the complexities of ownership right you have more esops in place you have more safes to convert you have more pools right >> um you might have other convertibles and so that complexity really grows >> so what capquist is is a tool that unifies all of this right and simplifies a lot of these processes uh to give founders complete transparency and clarity of their ownership both in terms of how how it is today and also what potentially can in the future as you model these out, right?

Um so it abstracts away a lot of these complexities of all of these tools and financial instruments that we discussed, right? Um to to build a solution that really uh adheres to these to these to these challenges that founders face. >> So are you the only solution in the market? >> No, we're not the only solution in the market. >> We're the ones that were built locally. Uh you know, we always say we're built in the region for the region.

Yes, in that case that >> in that case, yes. um because um obviously part of of our um fundraising journey >> right >> and also um I would say institution being aware of tribe because we're quite out in the open we're building in public right >> um I've had quite a number of inquiries >> um for cap table management right >> right um why don't we don't need to name some of them but they're quite popular names out there so what would you say >> your approach to um cap table management servicing differs from these parties.

What >> absolutely no great great question. I think what has been uh you know key factors in our success first from a product perspective we uh we really focus on automation right and again distilling this complexity of all of these tools into a solution that abstracts away a lot of these difficulties and nuances >> into a solution that again really focuses on on automation very clear communication and user experience.

Uh so that we're very proud of and that's been a key element of our success. But I think more than anything the reason that we are I think growing the way that we're growing in the market and gaining traction as we're gaining >> uh really is also a testament to our client services and account management across the board. >> Um if I can just take kind of a step back here right so cap table management understandably so is domain that not a lot of founders have experience with right.

Um and that's again quite understanding. We always say that cap table is kind of at the forefront or the crossroads of legal frameworks and financial modeling. Right? So of course it's a daunting sometimes intimidating you know task complex domains in isolation >> in isolation let alone together right and so a lot of founders invariably end up again understandably so procrastinating this and having to you know having to to push this a little bit later.

they always know in the back of their mind they need to get through this eventually right and so our entire ethos not only as a product but as a company has been to simplify this process right um for founders and help them bridge the gap between their understanding of cap table today and what it needs to be okay >> so not only do we emphasize this a lot from a product perspective >> but equally as important from a a client services and account management perspective we really are we handhold a lot of of founders that we work with right so the first stage that uh we work with founde

rs is whenever they they sign up to capest we'll do a complete you know review of their cap table help them understand what they've done so far whatever discrepancies that we find we help them adjust those you know recommend what they can do to fix whatever needs to be fixed uh and then we help them a lot of course on the actual onboarding uh onto the cap table. So really that scary, intimidating, daunting task that you know you need to do which is to get your cap table structured and organized.

We help you know remove that fear and get it done uh uh pretty much uh you know in in in a very fast fast manner and easy manner. >> Okay. So interesting automation right. So there's this uh the I think it's a D23 agenda. Um one of the pillars is um digital innovation or in innovation economy. um it talks about automation, blockchain, fintech and all those type of stuff. So what I'm very curious to understand is you know how much of that automation that you know a lot of these institutions speak about even startup is actually automation.

So I would really love for you to for us for you to explain how Cap Capqu Quest actually applies automation uh to ensure that cap table management you know becomes a fun thing to do not necessarily an easy thing to do but an understandable thing to do like you said in terms of transparency and all those stuff. I would be interested in understanding how automation is really um a core part of your solution.

>> Great question. So I think I think um two examples that I'll give you that I think are super helpful. Right. One is is ESOPs investing in general, right? So you can imagine a company that you know has 100 employees that have an ESOP which is the case and we have a few of those as well. >> What are ESOPS by the way? >> Employee share ownership plans, right? Um so stock option plan and RS for employees.

Exactly. It can also be for advisers by the way, right? Okay. >> Uh you can have plans for advisers for for you know uh other stakeholders in the business as well. But essentially these are plans that you're going to allocate to members of your of your of your company uh with shares that you would like them to vest over the course of a few years. Right? So you can imagine a company that has let's say 100 employees that they've all hired over the course of many different years.

Okay. >> Every employee is being given a plan that will vest over the course of four years. Okay. That means that your cap table effectively is changing quite frequently because today your shares vest tomorrow my shares vest tomorrow her shares vest etc. depending on the grand stage. >> Now imagine you've worked with Excel a lot. Imagine doing that manually where every single month and this is the challenge a lot of founders do not use a tool like Capqu Quest is that they should on a monthly basis update the cap table right to ensure that you know you have a cons consistency between the vesting structures and making sure that your issued basis is is up to >> that can become quite manual exercise extreme manner.

So today you know obviously on Cap Quest we went very um you know deep in in in this element. So today we have different forms of vesting that you can account for both time based performance based as well too. >> Um and once founders set this up and once it's it's set in the system whether you have two or three or five or 100 employees on your company you know that you know it's being automated and updated as you sleep right so on a month-by-month basis or every single trigger the cap table is up to date.

The second example I think I'd give and this has been a big differential is with with regard to safe conversions. Right. >> Safe conversions. Yeah. So stand for simple agreement for future equity. All right. So it's a financial instrument that startups use to fund raise at earlier stages when they don't yet have a valuation in place. Right. And I'm happy to talk more about those. >> So safe conversions there two there two types of safes.

So there there's what's called post money safe where you attribute a cap to that that conversion or discount based safe right. um post money saves are relatively straightforward in the conversion logic but discount based saves do have quite complications in terms of the conversions when it comes to converting those stakeholders to stakeholders right a lot of founders make mistakes at at this stage so >> within capest we have a tool that automates that conversion as well too uh ensuring that you're removing kind of any potential human error in that and you automate the conversion so that

those stakeholders when they do become stakeholders are automatically done so and the ma underlying math has done so correctly right and Just those two honestly are are things that when we show this to founders a lot of them don't even know that this possibility exists right they're like oh wow this tool exists already I can have this because they know that you know they know that um it's a challenge that will come at some point having to convert the saves having to >> audit and make sure that you know reconcile the vest in structures so having a tool like app that automates all of that really removes a lot of that operational hurdle uh and concerns that they have that they're going to have to do that at some point.

Now Mark, I I love that um for the following reasons. I just mentioned well that we met each other at Dubai Fintech Summit >> when you mentioned that you were working on this um product service u cap table management capest. No idea >> right >> how complex >> that could be fundraising in general for sure >> and then the operational angle actually operating and keeping up to date all the investor safes >> um esops and those type of things >> um now obviously with tribe um we're raising capital um we're raising through safes correct yeah >> um and our employees are also on the ESOPS advisor are on ESOPS So now being an operator, I start to see the actual complexity >> behind managing it if I would do it manually.

>> Mhm. >> Or through Excel, >> right? And I recall that we had uh you did a demo, right, for us, >> right? >> And two things exactly those two things you mentioned were for me like, okay, we need to get you guys on board. One, ESOPS, right? It's a tedious process to get it approved through the board, you know, the vesting schedules and those type of stuff, let alone actually manage >> how those actually vest over time, right?

And the solution that you guys brought is actually >> encouraging us and also other startups that you work with, right, >> to do it the first time right. Once you do the first time right basically input in the right input then basically your tool is able to cover all the vesting schedules conversions etc right so that's good so that's a great discipline secondly when it comes to safes >> what I love about your platform is that it and probably will touch upon that a bit later different elements about safe you mentioned dilution you mentioned pre- money post money uh you mentioned MFN we have discussed MFN Uh what's that again?

MFN is >> most favorite nation. >> Most favorite. Yeah, exactly. Um you uh we mentioned we mentioned price rounds. Um >> so there's quite a lot of stuff that goes into sales management. Right. So being a builder, being in tribe now, there's a lot of stuff that honestly I think cap table management in particular through your solution has really helped us to manage all of this so that we don't become a second one if you will.

>> Exactly. Exactly. >> So let's talk about capital raising. Um what are would you say two or the three things that you see founders doing wrong or they do not consider as they're raising funds for their businesses? Yeah. So I think I actually want to touch on safes for one second as well, right? Um so you know we we we do encounter founders that are still have a little bit of kind of a confusion.

Should they do a price round or a safe round? I would love to kind of just touch on that as well too. >> Go for it. And but you know when it comes to to to fundraising especially early stages right if you look at the alternative to safe which would be a price round or you know an equity round if you will >> you know when doing that founders and and investors they have to deliberate and agree on a series of elements right from share price to the percentage and with that also comes of course >> having to agree on what are the legal matrices around this right the shareholder subscription and all term sheets and all these things And that can be really time consuming and and expensive in many cases.

Right. >> What a incur legal cost. Right. >> Exactly. What exactly 100%. And what a safe allows you to do is to defer uh this this process of having to structure all of these things to a series A stage or a later st later on stage. Right? And a safe really again just to clarify it stands for simple agreement for future equity. Right? The emphasis there is future equity because stakeholders are not yet >> shareholders in the company.

stakeholders but not yet shareholders, right? And so it is a it is a standard format that founders can raise capital um without having to go again into the details and depths of all of these legal requirements that you would need to get to at at later stages, right? Um so we always recommend founders to start looking from a safe perspective, right? And looking at safes initially. The other thing as well too initially as as a founder um you know you're building your product you maybe you're pre-revenue maybe even pre-product itself it's very difficult to establish what a fair valuation would be

right and this again is what a safe does right is it allows a found the investor to invest in you now and the carrot that you give him is one of two things right either you give him a valuation cap to say listen you invest in me now >> when we do raise our next round uh we'll make sure to convert you at a value that is going to be lower than what we converted correct right so let's say simple example uh you're raising at a cap of $10 million, maybe you raise your next series A at 15 or 20.

These safe holders will be converted at 10. So they'll receive a significant discount in relation to those. >> There's an embedded discount if you want. >> Exactly. >> And the second sweetener that you can do which is an andor function, right? It's either um you can either do discounts or you can do a post money cap or you can do both, right? the discount says okay alternatively you say listen regardless of what I raise it in in the next round let's say I raise it at uh you know 20 assuming there's no cap here you'll get a 20% discount that as well too so there's a carrot to

to investors and more than anything it allows you to defer all of this legal deliberation that you need to do for later stages right uh so a lot of so we always recommend this to founders is you know raise through safes and an interesting story with us actually when we began our fundra we wanted to do it using a Right. >> And um >> within a month of our raise, an investor came in and said, "Listen, I I don't I don't want to use a safe thing.

I want direct equity and I want I want 20% of the company." And they he offered us the full round right then and there of our race. Yeah. >> Um and >> that's a sweet right here. >> It is. But I'll tell you, you know, we thought a lot about it because we would have closed our round very quickly. It would have been great. >> Uh but of course, we disagreed on the valuation at the time that that he had.

And so we said uh we decided to continue with our our safe round which we did. Um so you know again >> so so wait wait wait a sec. So what are the think what is the thinking that went >> honestly >> because it's money now valuation we can have a conversation about it but I'm very interested to understand why you as builders operators um venture build um startup venture builders >> decided against it and said look we're just going to extend around uh risking >> risking absolutely >> that it might take a bit longer yeah >> you probably have smaller saves because one of the risk um I guess I see in the market is stacking safes Right.

Which then becomes complexity whereas you actually want simplicity. >> Right. So really interested in understanding you know what thinking went >> into that to actually defer that. >> Don't get me wrong we thought long and hard about it. >> We thought long and hard about it for sure. I think ultimately what what it came down to was that we were going to dilute ourselves a little bit more than what we wanted to at the time.

>> Um and at earlier stages it's really important to protect yourself um to protect your equity in the company, right? So we didn't want to overdilute ourselves at that stage and disagreed a bit on the valuation side. Um I think had the valuation been one that we would have been more comfortable with, we would have I think entertained it more and maybe gone ahead. I see. Right. So it really was an element there on the valuation side.

>> So So was it so do I understand correct that it was a dilution? >> We would have been of course >> it was a it was a dilution um conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. Evaluation consequently dilution elements also. But I also want to go back to to what you were saying about uh kind of these complexities. So the other thing you mentioned you know stacking safe that's another thing which we always advise founders you first of all go with safes if you can obviously just just to close on this point if you do have a company that is revenue generating that is in a particular vertical

where you can establish forward revenue and you can establish a healthy multiple for that maybe then you you can justify doing a price round right but for earlier stage companies it's rarely that case and so finding a fair pre-revenue product like you said pre-operational especially for us tribe um given that well not only tribe but definitely um startups that operate in the uh regulated space >> 100% >> you need um you know specific licenses need to be approved by certain institutions and partnerships that need to be validated approved certified before you can actually put the eng

ine on >> y >> it gives you well it takes quite a long while before you can actually make revenue >> right so um that in itself is a risk and then I can imagine and staying in the present recently even the conflict that we have been part of that obviously also has impact on a lot of I would argue startups >> and therefore extending rounds further stacking uh say maybe through angel investors etc.

Yeah, >> I mean that's a real thing, right? >> It is. I mean, you know, we do see founders that will do multiple rounds of old safes. Um, what we always recommend there uh is to keep a very tight-knit understanding of the underlying math because it is going to get complicated down the line once you need to convert all of these. >> Um, so for sure keep a very tight-knit understanding of what that is and we help with that by the way as well too.

So anyone who has those challenges do let us know. Um but I think also you mentioned not only stacking states but things like the underlying clauses within a safe you talked about MFN clause very important that you also you know review this is what not not a mistake but uh common issue that we see founders make sometimes is >> they will um you know they'll deliberately they'll sign a safe and they have a basic understanding but not an in-depth understanding right so make sure that you review things in in absolute detail and a clause like an MFN clause has serious implication, right?

Which an MFN again, most labor nation stands that understands that if if I sign a safe today with you and in the future sign a safe with better conditions, in other words, lower cap, better discounts, I then need to apply these same conditions, favorable positions >> to to those who have an MFN clause, right? And so the math can get really complicated because you might have investors who don't have a clause, who do have this clause.

And so, um, keep a very good understanding of of what it is that you're signing. Um, and thereafter, by the way, once you do sign an MFN clause, remember that any safe you sign, if it's going to be renegotiated, there is going to have a retroactive impact on the ones that you've already signed, right? So, keep it. So, that's a good point actually. So, that's >> that's actually what an MFN commands, >> right?

It commands um equality across >> um stakeholders in particular those that came in first. >> Those that came in first and that have the clause. >> And have the clause. >> Exactly. Cool. Exactly. Exactly. Usually it might be for example a lead investor who might require this understandably so right >> which makes sense. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> So actually we have covered three things already.

So um part of capital raising having a good view perspective on dilution >> dilution risk. >> Yeah. >> Safe stacking. >> Yeah. >> And the third one is understanding the uh legal terms within the safe. >> Correct. >> Going back to the second point safe stacking. Can you maybe highlight an example whether it's your own company or the previous company or some of your clients that where you have seen safe stacking and how that has worked against a founder.

>> Yeah, absolutely mean I think what ends up happening uh when when founders invariably stack a couple different rounds especially those that aren't paying attention to what the dilutive impact is if you're not going to be modeling the impact of what these cumulative or compounding safes are going to do. Many times when we then run the math for them um and by the way this will happen sometimes and just two two two safes that have been stacked >> they're quite surprised what the impact there is right across the board especially when you take into account the the fact that you have

esops that have now been put into place and you have another investor all of a sudden what they thought with their equity when reality has been significantly diluted right um so I think the the the core message there is update your cap able if manually manually right at every single event and try your best to model out what the impacts are going to be ahead of time as well. So that that's happened a few different times.

>> Okay, that's interesting. Um >> one more thing I want to say sorry within safes. Sorry, I just want to talk about another common example of issues that we see. >> Okay, >> sometimes we see safes that actually uh have conflicting clauses in terms of pre- money and post money as well too. Okay. >> And uh a lot of times founders are maybe sent a template by someone that they believe uh you know has done kind of what needed to be done and in reality they they they have a stake they haven't right they haven't and you'll be surprised it happens quite often as well too.

So very important to keep uh an eye on the terminology so that there's consistency that is very good >> between always is a post money to make sure it's post money and worth pre- money pre- money. Uh for those that are raising through states, please do use post money. Now a pre- money is no longer really >> used. This is an interesting point because this is an actual practical point that uh we at tribe have also uh dealt with.

Um we generally use our own safe templates. Right. Exactly. >> Right. So that we have control of the terms and conditions legal and culture that you just uh mentioned. >> Um so two examples there was one uh institutional investor right >> that we onboarded. Uh they use their own safe templates. Um so we identified that uh and then ensured >> at least it was a conversation like how can we align standard saves with the saves that you are offering us to ensure that um everybody gets a fair deal right so I think that's one uh not just signing and be happy about oh wow we ju

st landed a big institutional investor sign it across right but is or where the the ex marker spot but really reading through the the terms and addition understanding what risk you're actually onboarding because if you don't understand it now if you don't understand it now >> it will come out at a later stage and then basically you're too late right so that's one a second one is another institutional investor >> again own template >> um and in our case because you were just talking about pre- money post money yeah >> uh in our first round uh we used a pre- money pre- money safe >> whereas this institutional party why don't you set up a post money.

>> So then you end up you know having a conversation about okay but then what's going to be the valuation cap you know those type of stuff. So >> practical example this we have went through it and it's yeah it's something you don't want to go through to so to your point and we spoke to you about it actually and your advice again was post money but I guess for us pre- money at that point in time >> um I guess was um the efficient route at that point in time uh but definitely going forward even with the future raises considering post money.

So yeah, I just wanted to highlight that that as founders ourselves, we have uh >> I'll be very honest, we we've unfortunately had to have some pretty uncomfortable conversations with founders to, you know, inform of the reality of of what's happened in terms of dilution uh where they thought what they thought was the case really was very very different. >> And this is why it's important to really maintain and gain complete control and understanding of your account table from day one.

>> It starts out simple, right? Three, four founders, everyone has an equal percentage. It's fine. uh but very quickly it can get very ca very complicated and things can can catapult. So uh update it as as often as you can and have that discipline is really really important. >> Yeah. >> Well you know us for a while now uh you have helped us on board to your platform. Um >> what are some of the things you saw with us honest honest feedback.

>> So Antoine handled the most of the management there. So uh uh but I think yeah I'd love to know more. I'm curious to know what is you guys faced. >> Funny enough, >> yeah, >> I think it's funny because um the feedback the first feedback we got from him is that he was surprised how well we have managed the safes. >> Yeah. >> So in my mind I think well this is number one priority to get the safes right.

>> 100%. >> Right. So for him saying that means that there are enough others whether it's institutions uh um um um venture builders those that are raising capital that do not sufficiently think about the implications of safes right so um whilst the feedback was good at the other on the other side it was quite concerning I mean it doesn't impact me but it's concerning for the venture uh building ecosystem in general right so that's why I'd of what we're doing right now >> so that we can you know create some transparency and education if you will >> for sure >> um i

n this space one other thing that I like about your um platform um and it syncs again to capital raising >> is scenario modeling >> can you speak about that a bit scenario modeling within your uh within your platform >> yeah for sure so I think you know a lot of times founders uh not only founders but investors are actually asking founders increasingly so to have a clear picture of what the future is Right to have an understanding in terms of let's say a new future fundraising round what is going to be the dilutive impact across all stakeholders and me as an investor once you

do raise your series A once you do raise your series B if I don't participate in these upcoming rounds right or if I do participate in these rounds um so again just going back to kind of the challenges that we faced as founders ourselves that was a question a lot of times founders investors were asking us hey listen what you know can you model out if I participate in this round, if I don't, what's going to be my duty of impact?

Uh how much will I be effectively diluted to? Right? So the first thing that we really focused on is building a scenario model that gives founders the capacity to model out a future fundraising round. Take into account all the potential parameters. So converting your safes, right? Let let me see what account is going to look like post conversion. Correct. Without actually converting them just yet, so you have a very clear picture.

>> I really love that. >> Okay. Post conver post safe. What if in this round we raise, you know, 2 million or 1 million, right? In addition to this, we do a bridge round. What's the impact of that? Just that bridge round. >> Um maybe in this next round, the VC might ask us to issue a pool ahead of time, right? >> Because pools have that impact as well too. Okay. >> They would like to see that impact >> ahead of time as well.

Makes sense. >> So again, we went very granular to give founders uh really a very strong module that allows you to kind of anticipate what that impact across the board. The other thing that we built as well too really importantly um is is a liquidity uh distribution as well to senior modeling right to understand the impact or the potential liquidity distribution in the event of a sale of a company right take into account all the nuances of share classes all the nuances of the rights and preferences that investors may have >> liquidation preferences >> those are like hidden >> those are very hidden actually you guys reminded me to actually have a look Absolutely.

>> Normally you talk talk about capital capital raising but liquidity is as important especially when it comes to liquidation and preferences right absolutely speak about that. Yeah for sure. So liquidity preferences right um they fall within share classes right which are designated type of shares that are set aside for different members of the company. So employees might be given a particular share class.

Founders might have a different share class and a lot of time investors require what are called preferred share classes that have certain rights and preferences and privileges that other share classes don't have. >> And one of those might be liquidity preferences, right? Honestly, one of my favorite subjects and this week I was speaking actually at the to the to the new sandbox um class about exactly about this as well and it was it was really really a very interesting conversation.

So liquidity preferences really they they define and dictate the order and amount of who gets paid in the event of a sale of a company. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And >> which is different from how much share. >> Absolutely. >> And that's that's an important distinction. >> Very important distinction. Important distinction. >> So there are three parameters that we can talk about.

Right. The first is the seniority which establishes the order of who gets paid out first. So an investor for example with seniority one right if he's the only one with that share class he's the first one to get paid out right >> and the payout is generally 100% >> we'll give you go for it I'll let you have it >> uh the second element there is your multiple a lot of investors will put you know put money and the request for a multiple right so I put a million dollars into your company for example right if I have a multiple of two it means that I need to receive back two regardl

ess of what you sell it for assuming I have a liquidity preference of one and I'll give you a practical example here >> wait are these liquidity events is predetermined or >> no no no no this is in the event of a sale of >> in event of a sale of company. So let's let's give a practical example, right? I invest a million dollars into your company, okay? And I have liquidity preference.

I have seniority of one and I have a multiple of two. >> You sell the business tomorrow for let's say $3 million. >> Oh, >> I get two and the rest is distributed amongst founders and other other people. >> Why as a founder would I sign up for that? >> That's a very good question. At the end of the day, at the end of the day, liquidity preference like anything is a negotiation, right?

What a lot of VCs will do understandably so is they'll put a multiple of one. >> Okay. >> Saying listen, at least I need to recover my money. >> Okay. In that sense, that's understand exactly. Um, now in the same example, right, let's say I ended up owning 40% of your company, okay, with the million that I put hypothetically, >> and you sell the company tomorrow for let's say 10 million.

Yes. Right. In this case, I can either act on my liquidity preference of receiving the 2 million or I can receive 40% of the actual exit amount, which is 40% of the 10 million would be 4 million. So, I can choose whatever one most benefits me. In this case, it would be the 4 million. Does that make sense? >> That makes sense. So, it's that option is given to the investor. >> Exactly. So, the liquidity preference is is either either.

So, it's either or. It's either. Exactly. It's either. Now participating rights is and >> it's it's the infamous double dimp right and let's say the same example okay >> are you kidding me >> yeah I know I know >> exactly >> who who made wait for give me a sec who made who made these rules >> you lawyers this is why you need to pay really close attention what it is that you're signing yeah it's infamous double dip right so in this example I put a million dollars into your company okay and I own let's a 40%.

Okay. And I have a multiple of two. Let's just keep the math. You're relative. >> That's predatory. Sorry. >> Thank you for saying that. 100%. >> Sorry. This is me just putting out my value system. >> It's It's predatory. >> Really? >> Yeah. Not only will I receive my multiple back, I then also participate. In this case, 40% of whatever was remaining as well goes to me.

It's the infamous double dip as well. Yeah. Yeah. So, liquidity reference, it's one of my favorite subjects because that's most founders have that exact reaction. It's like, are you kidding me? from everything we discussed dilution stacking and terms and conditions discounts MFN. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I feel and probably you can see it. I feel like this part liquid liquidation events or liquidity liquidity preferences.

>> Yeah. >> I mean that is the kill switch. >> It is. It is >> if you don't get it right. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. If you don't pay attention to what it is that you're signing 100%. Now again I want to just mention one thing. It it is predatory for sure. But I will mention though that it is not very common that you see you know participating. >> Have you seen that in the GCC?

>> Um I can't speak for the GC in general. We haven't yet seen that. Um obviously our platform has accounted for that because it is a reality of what is out there for sure. Um but yeah but it is it is a term that uh it is a fue that is is increasingly present in >> one more thing. >> Can you answer the question why a founder would accept this? Look, I think at the end of the day, it's a negotiation uh that you have uh and it's an element of of leverage, if you will, of at at that moment, right?

Um >> I think why they would accept it also comes down, as I mentioned, to to what leverage they have in the moment of the negotiating with founders. Um but be careful obviously it can have significant impact uh for for yourself and for other members as well too. >> Yeah. >> Sorry, I'm still in shock. >> Yeah. >> So, >> it's a really cool subject though. Uh I mean probably I'm not the only one.

There are multiple um venture builders there. >> Look at the cap tables from um a future equity perspective, right? Looking at the saves. Well, >> this is how the conversion will look like. >> But then actually this liquidity preferences is a quite strong counterweight to you know whatever the equity share. I mean, it's almost irrelevant almost at a sales point, right? Because a liquidity preference or that option can potentially give you much more.

>> Yeah. >> Than based on share price, a number of shares you have in general. I think I think I I just wanted to emphasize that um it is not it's not extremely common especially here. >> Okay. So maybe I'm I'm over maybe I'm overemphasizing this. >> I just want to mention this you know participating rights exists conceptually and exists and don't get me wrong there are there are you know there are institution investors that invest in this form and in this matter and they they they have participating rights but it is not as as common.

Okay, that being said, that being said, >> do review all term sheets 100% across the board. You know, every every legal document that's sent to you, make sure they're reviewing it great in great detail. >> Don't just sign anything >> 100%. >> Make sure you review everything. These days, you have chat GPT, by the way, >> or Claude can just run it through it. Make sure you you got yourself covered.

>> Um, another thing that I wanted to understand from your view, um, pro I mean, we're not the only ones raising in this ecosystem. Um generally I hear um metrices like raise 12 to 18 months >> right you mention future revenue raise against future revenue right >> is there something you can speak about regarding this what is this 12 18 months thing where does it come from what would you generally advise builders >> capital raisers >> I think I think it's really important for for founders remember that investors are not investing in runway right >> they're not investing in a runway They're investing.

>> They do have questions, a lot of questions about runway. >> They do. But that's because your runway is a means to an end. >> Yes. >> Right. So focus on that end. >> Yes. >> Ultimately, what you're what you're raising for um and what the runway is for is for a particular milestone, right? That you're able to reach and then unlock your next raise, your next stage of the company.

>> So let's look at this from a framework of let's say pre preede seed and let's say C for example, right? So preede what what you're again gross generalization here right but what you're raising for at a preede stage the milestone if you will right uh you're looking to build your product you're looking to launch it right and maybe build an initial proof of concept maybe some early initial traction so maybe your your your end there that you're looking for the milestone there is the launch of the product right and initial PC whatever that may be okay initial users some revenue nothing too nothing too too crazy right uh that's what your preede emphasis is on, right?

And so it's it's it's okay to have this really cleared out and clarified at the moment of fundraising with investing. Listen, this is what we're raising for, right? And that that's the milestone that we have. >> Whether that's going to take 12 months or 18 months is separate to the conversation. What you want to build is this, right? Got it. >> Um on the seed stage, if we can talk about that for a second, that's you know, you you have a bit of a proof of concept.

Now, what you want to do is you want to prove potential scalability, right? you have a product, it's out in the market and you're test you've you tested different go to market strategies and you've proven that this is scalable that there's a potential to scale maybe the northstar there is particular certain revenue milestones that you want to reach right maybe it's break even maybe it's profitability what are the milestones that you want to establish in the seed stage right um but certainly it's more proving that there is repeatability in what you've built and that you can scale and then your series A is all about scalability right maybe it's focusing on entering in other markets or the vertical within what it is that you're doing, right?

So to prove you have a proven pro proof of concept you you've built it you've proved that it's repeatability and then you can scale the 12 to 18 months I think in general was just the appropriate amount of time to in the preed stage maybe to build something right to prove at the seed stage to reach a scale um that you can again prove repeatability and then you know and then thereafter but I think more and more we're we're in the world that we're living in today you're able to really shorten that learning curve tremendously and a lot of people are building and launching company companies and products a lot faster, right?

So, I wouldn't be surprised if that 12 to 18 month kind of rule or or standard changes as well too, right? >> So, that's kind of where it comes from. Makes >> sense. I >> I do want to mention as well um you know being very realistic here, right? There is a direct correlation between obviously the amount of money that you raise and your odds of success, right? That's just the simple reality of it, right?

on that raises. I mean it's quite straightforward and but if the more a company raises right um the more times uh the more of course leverage that you have and capital that you have um to to test different things right and to pivot in a sense where needed and to scale and to hire the right people right invariably in companies we end up you know in that scaling process you're going to hire maybe the wrong people right you're going to hire you're going to go into a market that you shouldn't have gone you're going to launch a product that you should have been focusing on.

All of that costs time and capital, right? For those that have a finite significantly finite amount of capital that can be the end of that company, right? So the more that you raise, the more you're able to test things, the more you're able to look look at new markets, new verticals, hire more people. >> So it is it kind of makes sense, right, in general. So the reason I'm saying this is because you know a lot of founders are also understandably so worried about dilution early on and you do hear people saying you know that they regret having raised this much in the beginning >> the

reality is that's a rare occurrence right most founders don't have that luxury to say that oh man we raised too much um so you know I think buying yourself you know that 12 to 18 month run rate is also what allows you to be able to have enough time to test this out uh understand if there going to be pitm falls. You're going to be speed bumps along the way and you're going to have to readjust as you go.

>> Um, but that's where it came from. But I think >> I wouldn't be surprised if if as things are progressing, companies are able to launch products faster, test them faster, and shorten that curve a lot of times as well too. >> I think this is interesting. We um probably like other venture builders, we do get questions about uh cap table, um runway, uh burn multiples, I mean >> all these things, >> all all of these things.

And I think uh what at least Capqu Quest has enabled us to do is respond quickly to those type of questions. Um how does the dilute how does your diluted uh capital stack look like? >> Exactly. >> We can run a scenario and then here you go. These are the number of shares and um this is what it means in terms of dilution and by the way like you said these are the ESOPs that we're going to grant as well.

So I love that functionality. Another thing that or questions that we receive well not explicitly but know it's an implicit parameter that has been looked at is capital efficiency. >> Mhm. >> Right. So to your point being um raising capital is one thing because I know internally we have had a conversation if you raise too much >> what are you going to spend it on? Do you have enough absorption capacity to your point?

Um and if you raise too less then probably you end up going back to the market and say look I need bridge >> right >> bridge saves and those type of stuff right but then capital efficiency actually tells us there's a number parameter that tells us how efficient have you deployed capital into the business and turn into revenue metric right and it doesn't need to be profitability but it's about revenue the speed into revenue right so my question on that point is um what do you generally see in the GCC market you know regarding uh capital raise and how quickly ventures are able to actually translate that into revenue.

>> Yeah, that's a good question. Um again I can't speak for the GCC in general. I think that you know one thing that we always speak about Antoine he always emphasizes you know the importance not only of of of modeling and understand your cate also on the financial projection side of things as well too >> is especially if you have businesses that are able to start bringing in revenue at an earlier earlier stage >> you're able to offset your cost basis right >> to revenue with revenue so all of a sudden your fund raise that bought you a 12 18month run rate all of a sudden if you're be if you're able to compensate some with revenue, you're extending that tremendously, right?

>> I wouldn't be able to tell you uh how quickly, you know, companies are able to do this. What I will tell you, and I think you'll know this more than more than most is that capital is no longer cheap, right? Um and I think the idea that companies are able to just fund raise and focus on just kind of gross merchandising, GMV or gross booking value or just >> uh you know, transactional value without looking at revenue has changed.

This has changed tremendously. So um you know VCs and I think the ecosystem at large are focusing a bit more on revenue generation and profitability as well too which I think is a healthy metric in general to have. But yeah I think we always like to emphasize the importance of looking at how your finances and your revenue specifically will be able to compensate your your cost base and maybe extend that run rate.

So maybe what was a 12 18month run rate all of a sudden is is 2 years is more than that you know as well too. I mean it would be great if you whatever capital you deploy actually gets you to profitability and therefore raising capital becomes more a strategic choice. >> Exactly. >> That's a position that you want to be in position of always you want to be 100%. For sure. For sure. >> Cool.

This is nice. So talked a lot about uh these technicalities but real life real world technicalities. >> Uh something else real world technicality is ESOPS right? um how you bring on board employees and how you actually keep employees, right? In particular in the startup industry, I would say arguably, but correct me if I'm wrong, where I would say the perk is, you know, the the almost infinite upside if you will.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Um in exchange for, you know, working extremely hard committed to making this thing work, whether it's passion, dream, solving an important problem in the world, right? So um how important is it to get this right? Essop >> it's a great question. Um I I want to go back. It's funny part of our interview process I mentioned in our design stage right is we interviewed as I mentioned before many CFOs and across the board what was really interesting for us to hear especially those of you know series B C and even these preIPO companies was exactly this point which is CFOs would tell us always that they have a really hard time translating the value of ESOPs to their employees.

Right. So a couple things I want to touch on that >> first is you know at the end of the day if you're not communicating to employees and to to stakeholders alike right whether it's advisers that are also being given shares right >> um ultimately what the what those shares translate to in terms of percentage ownership in their business in terms of the potential capital valuation that they have as well too um it is very difficult for them to get lost in translation right so you know the way a lot of times companies operate is they'll have an ESOP in place you'll sign it on your first the companies, listen, these are going to invest over the course of the next four years, and you never hear of them again, right?

They're technically supposedly being invested on the back on the on the back end, if you will, but you never really know what's happening. >> So, having the ability to communicate with with with your your employees, right? Be it quarterly, be it monthly. Explain, listen, by the way, >> Dennis, these are your new shares. These are how much is vested. This is what they translated to into percentage of ownership into the company.

And of course what that represents in terms of capital ownership effectively right is really really important. So if you're using ESOPs employee share ownership plans as a retention tool, as you absolutely should, and this is a growing trend around the world, make sure that you're communicating this to everyone that has an ESHOP in place, right? Be it quarterly, be a monthly, really important. >> Obviously, >> as you scale, it becomes more difficult to do that, right?

You can't have individual calls because it is also quite quite personalized who was given which percentage and which for those type of things. Yeah. So again uh not to plug cap question too much but this is what where we really emphasize a lot of focus in terms of >> uh stakeholder dashboards right so employees are given this transparency from day one um where they have complete understanding of their ESOP position which plan they were granted which type of share class they were granted how many shares they were granted how many of those have vested how many of those are yet to vest what

the end vesting date is as well too with visual share price what that corresponds to in terms of equity capital change and how they've how they've been >> duted and a core picture of dilution and specifically as well of a vesting of their vesting position in the company as well too. So they have a visual understanding and context over what those shares really mean and more than that we you know we'll send monthly emails to all employees informing them of their uh of their new vesting um and how through capest through capest.

Oh wow. Okay. So if if if um if you have shares that vest on a monthly basis or quarterly basis or yearly basis at each of those instances employees are sent emails saying hey congrats on your investing you know these are the number of shares that you now own the business this is what you've unlocked etc etc and and that's been really important to create that sense of of of clarity right for both founders and for employees and we believe that ESOPs are a great tool to align incentives between between the company and everyone that's working for the for the general vision that you guys have and so for I think it's fundamental to have this clarity from day one.

>> So I think so thank you for um expanding on that. So obviously it's one thing for the company to be very clear and transparent about how ESOPs work as a ESOP owner once that has received the ground and the employee or adviser there's also responsibility from your side right being um other than putting the hours in open up your network that some of the advisers do or some of the angel investors do open up your distribution channel and all those things >> but also um seeing that this is value that we're creating together.

>> Absolutely >> right. And the more we come together as you I almost said we are family. >> But that's what it is, right? >> So the more we >> we contribute to making this product, this service work, it benefits all >> everybody, >> right? And I think part of it would be for us as founders and venture builders to also communicate make that part of the communication right that the more you contribute whether it's relationships or uh other angel investors or open up your distribution channel or telling us which events we should be going to.

Right? These are all values well not necessarily monetary but these are values that can definitely um have impact on whatever happens with a company in terms of valuation and future rounds right so I think there's a responsibility from >> for those as well other than the company >> hey let's talk uh in the end >> around the end of this conversation and I I really love what we have covered so far but what I also want to cover is cap quest >> yeah coming six to 12 months, what can we expect in terms of development from Cap Quest?

What are product updates? How does it look like? What are you going to ship to the masses? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm really proud of what we've just recently uh shipped and will launch very we'll announce this very very soon, but I'm happy to announce it here. We just finished integration with Docu Sign. Uh >> finally, finally, guys, it's about it's about time. It's about time. It's about time.

There was just one manual process that was still left and they're about to solve it. Thank you so much. Yeah. So really I think Docuine has has been a tremendous addition to to the platform because a lot of companies want to use this to be able to have employees speaking of ESOPS actually sign their grants directly to the platform right and they're now able to do so on Capu. So no longer need to leave the the Capquest ecosystem.

They'll do so directly through through Capu. So it can send the grant agreements and we can modularize the entire document right then and there. They can send it out. It's signed and it's kept within uh within the platform there. Same thing for says by the way >> uh to be added very soon very soon as well. Yeah. No, great great question. So I think what we always are priding ourselves on is adding more elements of clarity and transparency um to to founders and to employees.

So we're constantly going to be re re remodeling restructuring of dashboards to add a lot more insights into cap cap table health and all these these parameters that I think founders have been asking us to do quite frequently as well too. We have a lot of other integrations in play as well that we're looking to do um that will help facilitate a lot of the transactional elements within within this which I can speak to you about in the next episode as well too.

>> Ah okay. Or offline. >> Uh exactly we're offline 100% as well too. Yeah. >> No just speaking of you know safes and grants and everything the the template module that we built you know a lot of founders have have trouble and they have questions about structuring the right type of templates. So we're adding a lot of elements and and resources for them to be able to do this whether it's safe agreements or grant agreements.

So an entire module dedicated towards helping founders have a better understanding uh and execution capacity of of these documents as well too is in the pipeline as well. >> Um and yeah a lot more a lot more that we have structured and super excited for for the coming coming semester as well too. And >> that's good. I already hear a number of things that are going to make my life a lot easier.

>> Yeah definitely. >> Um >> I will I want to mention one more thing as well too. You know, one of the other big challenges that founders relate to us is is the ability to communicate from an investor relations perspective back to investors, right? Um whether it's uh you know, whether it's quarterly reporting, you know, whether it's KPI reporting, that has been a very common trend and requirement from from the ecosystem.

So, we're launching something very soon with regards to that as well too that we're super excited about. And I think it's going to help bridge that gap between founders and investors and help help uh improve that overall communication. Marco came with goodies >> 100%. >> He's making my life easier. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, Marco. Um, >> every uh blogby-block session. >> Yeah.

>> Podcast. By the way, this is the number one propt tech podcast of the UAE and we're going global. Follow this space. >> Back to you, Marco. Yeah, >> you have run with us in this journey for a couple of months now and we definitely see that continuing our relationship. You know a bit what we do. Yeah. >> Right. And tribe we are building out in the open. >> Um and that's why we're doing this by the way and that's why you're here.

Um having um real conversations about the journey of a venture builder and I must say fundraising capital management is central to this. Right. And I think we fleshed that out uh quite significantly in this uh in this session. So >> u looking at tribe um and our road ahead. >> Yeah. >> Can you give me two things um opportunities and obstacles? >> Opportunities. I think you guys are it's pretty pretty pretty clear you guys are at the forefront of um major shifts that can happen within within the prop tech space in general, right?

I think the way property transactionally is happening today within the ecosystem um is is how how it's been for a long long time and I think you guys are at the forefront of changing that. So I think the upscale potential that you have is absolutely um obvious and I'm so excited for that journey and I'm so excited to be a part of that journey as well and to participate and and to help in any which way that we can as well too.

>> Participate will you invest in a token? >> I would invest in token. Yes. >> Good. Great. >> 100%. We have absolutely founding tribe member here. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. >> More to talk about that offline as well. I have some people I want to introduce you to. Really? Great. >> Uh >> this is the nice thing about building. >> Yeah. >> In Dubai.

>> Yes. >> Right. >> Yes. >> Building in Dubai. Maybe you can touch quickly on the ecosystem. How was it for you to actually build in this ecosystem? >> Man, I I for sure I think it's been it's been a breath of fresh air and so refreshing to build in Dubai and for for a couple reasons. One is the ecosystem at large. Founders here I think by and large I think this is testament to the fact is that we really want to see each other >> thrive% 100%.

>> I think I'm yet to find a place in the world where there is this amount of encouragement and help that comes from the ecosystem to the ecosystem. Yes. >> So just a quick example, we were both a part of of Accelerator and I mean I'll tell you from that cohort of people, we have clients, we have partners, we've been introduced to investors. >> Uh we've been introduced to to other clients from from these members as well too.

Um, and I I don't think there's a week that goes by that we're not introduced to potential partners and potential clients and potential, you know, people that can help our ecosystem from our existing set of cohorts and partners, etc. >> And that's so refreshing to see. There's a genuine care >> to enrich the ecosystem from other founders as well too. And that's so so cool to see. >> And then I think there's a very strong alignment between the private and public sector, right?

I think the government is doing a great job of just incentivizing uh a very rich ecosystem for us to to to thrive in and to do to do really well. Um so places that you know we we kind of find ourselves in whether it's DFHQ or you know innovation one all these great >> 25H exactly 25H. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think these are are just again a testament to this great alignment that exists in the ecosystem.

>> So I I couldn't recommend it. Come build in Dubai. I couldn't recommend it more. >> Right. For sure. Yeah. We love we love building in Dubai% >> um obstacles >> opportunity obstacles >> look I think uh I think you guys are are reaching the end of of one of these big obstacles right which is going to be on on the more on the licensing element of things you can speak >> almost there and I >> probably the moment we this podcast comes out >> I think that's I think on other on the other side I think really it's going to be an element of educating the ecosystem education for sure >> removing that barrier of of understanding of what it is that you're doing and the risks around that as well too.

Uh because it is at the crossroads, if you will, of real estate tokenization, right? It is still >> it's a convergence. >> It's a convergence of one of the most traditional forms of of assets, right, with one of the newest forms of assets and you're putting those together, right? Um, so for sure you're going to have uh I think a challenge ahead of educating the ecosystem and the market in general as to what it is that you're to to what it is that you're doing.

But again to remove uh that whatever uh degrees of questions they may have around that, right? I think >> things like this are phenomenal for that. I think conversations that you have with the ecosystem are phenomenal for that. I think you guys are already in along very much in that way. Um but but keep keep pushing. By the way, we have that same challenge too. Captive management is again not a domain that people have experience with right.

So we have a lot of job in terms of educating the market of kind of best practices >> I would like to say >> and um yeah and I think we we both have uh that that journey ahead of us as well too collectively. >> Beautiful Mark I really want to thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for the invite. Appreciate >> really for coming all the way here >> of course um time. >> This was blog by block future of finance the number one propt tech podcast in the UAE and we're going global. Cheers. Thank you boys. Thank you man. Appreciate that.