Dubai Property: The Token Revolution

We will always try to be number one and whoever wants to challenge us, they're welcome. And uh >> he's not. We'll cut that sorry bit out. >> We're always going to be >> not sorry at all. If I had a dirham for every time I've been asked by an investor, how are you going to manage the competition? What about cryptoco? I would have a lot of dirhams. >> Amazing. Well, then you can invest them on. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, first class. We're not even 2 minutes in. >> How do you think about competition in the space that you kind of pioneered into? >> Yeah. It only proves the business model that we're trying to build.

To be honest with you, it's literally paving the road for everyone else to be part of that journey. And >> competition will make the market even better, >> not kill it. >> We had to essentially change the way real estate works, right? It hasn't been extremely easy, but that's again part of the challenge. It's literally building block by block. >> Mhm. Oh, there you go. You then tokenized 10 properties, >> but then nothing. If you want to innovate, you will have to find challenges.

Yeah, there's going to be a slap in the face every single day and you're just going to have to get up and then keep keep pushing and we're doing everything that's possible to make sure that we will remain number one. Sorry to say we that's our mission and uh are you worried about crypto? Are you worried about others? No, I'm not. And I tell you why. Because you know what we're doing is actually creating a layer on top of a if you look at Dubai alone $250 billion you know market. >> I'm not sure if I should say this but >> now you've absolutely got to say it now you've said that. Yeah. >> And what do you think is our greatest obstacle other than the number one player in the space?

Welcome back to BlockbyBlock, the leading prop tech podcast as per comic. And today I have a very, very, very special guest. And I'm very excited and honored and privileged to have him by my side. I have Joseph Elam. And I'm not going to even tell you who he represents because he's going to tell you that later. And that's why this episode is so special. Joseph, welcome to Blockby. >> Thanks, Gary. >> Um, for Before we get going, uh, tell me a little bit about yourself. How did you find yourself here in Dubai? Tell me about your career leading up to what you now do. >> Amazing. Thanks, Gary. So, I'm Joseph Alam. I'm Lebanese Venezuelan.

>> Uh, so uh I'm luckily part or citizen of the two most hyperinflated countries in the world. So, that's >> there you go. That's that's an intro. That's an opening hook, right? >> Uh, well, grew grew up in Lebanon, studied in Lebanon, and moved to the UAE in 2016. Actually, I started in Bahin first.

I was an auditor at PWC uh in Bah and then I moved to the UEE with Teos which is a banking software company stayed there for about 4 years then I found myself uh actually joining a fintech called Stashaway a leading Singaporean digital digital wealth manager >> um so I helped them launch their operations here in the country and that's how kind of the 0ero to1 came into play uh through Stashaway >> also spent about four years over there and I got the opportunity at Prepco and I'm the general manager of Prepco Blocks and Perpo the fraction ownership business and the regulated uh entities of Perco. >> Awesome.

Like I said, so pleased to have you on and this is exactly what BlockbyBlock is all about. It's about the ecosystem that Tribe is building into and as I mentioned to you, we're one very small part of it. Obviously, we want to be a bigger part of it over time. Uh but sitting down with innovators like yourself, regulators, banks maybe, you know, we're not going to get there yet. Um but, you know, super pleased to have you on. So thank you very much. So let let's start there. We're obviously building in the same space. If if I had a dirham for every time I've been asked by an investor or anyone about, you know, how are you going to manage the competition? What about prepco?

I would have a lot of dirhams. >> Amazing. And then you can invest them on. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Oh, first plug. We're not even 2 minutes in and it's already plugged. My goodness. Um but you know, we're we're embracing it, right? And I think like I said to you off camera that the the really good thing about not just you but you're ultimately leading here but your team is that you've embraced tribe um you know we've played paddle we've met at different events you'll hear on on the podcast uh you welcome me into your office which I thought was incredible um and you know competition is amazing.

I think that is really the the purpose of this particular episode is to say that competition will will make the market even better not kill it. Um so let's start here. We're obviously building in the same space from a PRCO perspective. Why did you guys think that >> real estate tokenization particularly u because I know you have blocks and and mint and we can dive you know we're not talking about mint but why did you think that you know fractional investment you know via tokenization was a path worth pursuing? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's important first of all to take a step back and understand what we're trying to solve and essentially is real estate freedom for all.

And that's the kind of mission statement of Pripco, which is providing an ownership to literally every single person. >> Yeah. >> Um and through fractional ownership, you know, you can do that. So, traditionally speaking, setting up an SPV, every single property is uh is is kind of the shareholder of that property or is the SPV. Uh and then investors are in in um as shareholders of the SPB. So, that's the traditional model. It works. It's robust. It's proven its purpose. However, there are some gaps in the whole uh and the way forward and and the way to kind of mitigate all of these gaps is through tokenization is through technology.

And maybe 10 years down the line there might be a new technology that can even bring that um that space into kind of more innovation, right? But right now we're at that space. We're in in tokenization. So as the SPV model is quite complex uh there you need to set up an SPV for every single property. That's a lot of admin work and that's happening on the back end. Imagine >> having a thousand investor in a single property. That's that means uploading a thousand passport on to an SPV every single time. And every single time you want to change a person from that SPV, you also need to do the same. So >> it's a lot of operational complexity. >> It brings cost to the table.

And more cost means less ROI to the investor. >> Yep. >> And you're not really solving for ownership, which is the mission statement. You're providing access which is the right thing to do and it has served its purpose >> but you're not the owner. >> So through tokenization what we're trying to achieve here is these three key points. Providing that ownership your name is directly on the title deed. >> Number two reducing the cost right. So you no longer have an SPV. You're transferring the property immediately. No need for a trustee. And uh the fees are much lower. So everything actually goes back to the pocket of the investor.

that's a higher ROI essentially to the investor and then finally the operational complexity is much is reduced right by by by quite uh quite a lot. So and that's how you're actually able to have a 24/7 marketplace for people to trade their tokens at any point in time uh and kind of work towards getting a much more liquid uh market in in a semi-liquid asset class. >> Yeah. No, ultimately there there's a lot of talk around tokenization, around the the regulation, the technology, and everything else.

But when you really boil it down to like the most simplest principle, it's about generating the the best possible ROI for for investors and giving them that direct ownership 100% and all of the benefits that come with it. So um so let's let's stay you know stepping back for a moment. What Pipco Blocks was formed when what? >> 2023. >> 23. So you know that that has gone on to be very successful and like you say has proven again the the SPV model. There are others right um you know that went before you and and there are others still coming through now um on the SPV model, the DFSA regulated model. Um but what did you see?

What did you guys at Pryco see to kind of say right we now need to start making a bet on Pripco Mint? and you know what made you believe that yes this is this is going to happen now this is inevitable >> yeah uh a couple of things number one let's not hide from it the demand right so as soon as we launched the platform actually the properties were funded in an incredible uh amount of time and and I'm not saying that every single property is going to go through that path not at all it's actually kind of justifies that actually no people are interested in such a solution in such a product that is quick so you're funding a property okay it took 5 10 minutes to fund it. That's great.

It might not be the case down the line. But most importantly, after funding the property, the investors got their title deed in less than an hour. >> In the traditional way, and forget about um you know, fraction ownership in the traditional way. You want to transfer a property, it's going to probably take you a week or so getting all the documents sorted. Everything is done immediately after the property is funded. So that's one. And number two and the most important point for me is that there is a legal a government entity on the back of this project giving you your legal ownership in that title. Yeah. Right.

So the Dubai land department which is the driver of this project that and also VAR that are two regal entities driving this project forward giving you access to real estate through a legal means and recognizing your ownership. That's the key differentiator here. and and that's why we believe that moving into into this direction is only going to grow the real estate market in Dubai and actually put us kind of a stamp of approval uh of the government on this initi on on kind of uh on the ownership of of the investors.

So is it the the convergence then of both the DLD and VAR and the enablement of you know direct tokenized ownership is that what gave you the conviction to go first cuz you guys went first right you went >> well we we >> something we may something must have triggered that thinking that idea >> I mean to to be quite frank I mean our our founder Amira Sajuani has been uh you know at the core of this project since probably early 2021 2020 22. She's she's been on it for quite a while. Um, and we've tried first actually our first entity that we tried to set up was uh a tokenization platform. The market was not ready for it.

So, and you you start continuing and you start building and you start actually proving the point. Um, and and with the help of the government and and VA, we were able to to succeed and and launch the the first tokenization project back in 2024 2025. It took some time. Um, and nothing that's innovative takes two days to build. It takes some time. And most importantly, it's a regulated product, which means that you need to be very careful how you're structuring that entire framework because >> there's client money involved and you cannot go wrong with that, right?

So, it >> you need to take all the time that you need to make sure that the product and the framework is robust >> to apply for everyone and have others join as well. >> Yep. No. I know. Um, completely agree. So, you launched in 2025. Um, it was kind of framed as the the DLD um kind of pilot project for tokenization and like you said, it was >> it needed them, right? If it didn't have the DLD putting their weight behind it, it possibly still wouldn't be off off the ground in in such a way. Um, and like you said, it took time. I'm sure it took a lot of energy, uh, resources. talk us through that kind of buildup to the launch. Not not the launch itself.

We'll come on to that in a moment, but talk us through that. I don't know the the end of 2024, early part of 2025 as as you were getting ready to kind of tokenize that first property and all. Don't don't hold back. >> It was honestly now in retrospect, it was incredibly fun. >> Yeah. >> In the moment, it was >> maybe didn't feel so much. >> It was so stressful. So at the end of 2024, we got the green light from uh VAR and the land department to start working towards the project. We submitted our first application to VAR in late uh December of 2024. >> Um and then stuff started moving slowly but started moving.

And then in February just uh just before the just before Ramadan and we sat all in a huge board meeting in the land department. It was ourselves it was control alt obviously land department vara central bank was there and then we decided okay to actually put a date and to launch because we said okay if we're going to keep saying yeah what are the updates but with no specific date and deadline and timeline >> it's going to drag on.

So we decided 25525 would be the date to launch and it was a Sunday >> right >> so and we'll get to that in a second so we decided on that date and we had three months to take everything live from a license perspective from a product perspective getting the property getting the investors at the end of the day we need to understand that yes there is a technology and that's tokenization however >> there's also a raw property that needs to be taken care of. Exactly. That I mean you cannot tokenize the tenant, right? You cannot tokenize the furniture. It's there and you need to get it ready. So there's a lot of work that happens actually in the in the back end. >> Uh so we got everything ready.

>> Um and it was so surprising that and that's I I want to give the credit here to to Dubai as a city. I don't see any other country or any other city in the world or government the world where on weekends and during public holidays you see them working to make sure that we're delivering on that data and and that's very important because when a government a regulator and private entities such as ourself and controlled are all aligned on a single >> mission to take this live and then change the way real estate works in Dubai nothing will stop you right and that's why on the Sunday we launched Literally the day before we got our license, we launched >> day before.

>> Every everything was done >> to the millimeter. Everything was done without cutting any corners. Everything was done perfectly well >> and it was delivered. >> Actually, it was on on the on the Friday night that we got the the license. >> On Saturday, everything was set for the property. On Sunday, we took it live. On Monday morning, we fully funded it. So, in less than 24 hours. >> And then >> you start learning from there. you only start learning, right? So were there hur hurdles? 100%. >> Yeah. >> You don't innovate something that is easy to build, right? So if you don't find challenges, then that's that's not innovation.

You always start to find hurlers, problems, and then you need to start fixing them. >> Yeah. >> And that leads to property number two. It goes to property number three and so on all the way to property number 10. And that was kind of the um mandate that were given that was given to us 10 properties to fund and we've done it in two months. >> Wow. Um and and there was obviously a lot of I mean I remember the actually I remember that Sunday very well cuz I was watching with um you know baited breath shall we say.

Uh, and it was incredible and and the just the wave of momentum that was triggered on that Sunday and and positivity around and awareness around tokenization again around fractional ownership because it was a new take on an existing concept. Um and again the execution that you guys did, control alt did, vara dld like you say it's very very unusual for you know that many uh government entities, regulators, private companies to come together and work so well so quickly on a single mission. Um so you know huge amount of credit is due to to you and all of the those involved and um you know we loved it. We loved watching it and and seeing seeing where it went and it just kept going, right?

And I think just talk me a little bit through those, you know, that that journey of property number one to property number 10 because the hype kept going. There was more podcast, we saw yourself, your your founder, the Dr. McMoo, like all of a sudden Pripco and tokenization and DLD were everywhere. Um, so talk us through that kind of property number one to property number 10 and the hype that came with it. Yeah, I mean we had to essentially change the way um real estate works, right? So now you're you're no longer going to a trustee to make the transfer. Everything needs to be done through the tokenization engine that is uh controlled.

Uh you need to uh to change also the mindset and the understanding of the developers and registering the property um and on on their books, right? So usually you give them a title deed, there's one name. Now you have hundreds of name there. So, so they get confused, right?

So it's all about educating as well all the parties involved to understand what is it that you're trying to build and and that's obviously full credit to to the land department to actually bring all these uh players such as diwa empower all the other governmental institutions that kind of you need to interact with to >> you know unlock a property uh the developers and making them aware of the situation and that didn't happen from day one like we >> gradually started educating everybody on the system and buy property number 10. It was just very smooth.

Get get the property uh on on on the platform funding it, send the orders to the land department through control, get the title lead and you find the tenant >> and then everything becomes an offline work. So, uh this journey took us obviously two months to kind of make sure it is robust. I can only say that it will only get better from there. I'm not saying that it's 100% perfect. We've only tested it with one platform. Now having two and three and four will only show us more stuff uh to kind of enhance and and and and make sure that it's running smoothly. And that's again to to my point that's that's what's innovation is right. >> Absolutely.

>> And it's uh it's literally building block by block. So >> Oh, there you go. Fair fair play. You've just plug plugged the podcast. So we're even now um the it must have felt good there, right? um you know with a property going live and and funding in well minutes, right? Who said the first one took 24 hours? >> Because we have zero clients. That's right. >> Yeah. But one of them didn't, right? One of them funded in under two minutes. So, you know, the fact that 24 hours was the longest amount of time was it if I'm not mistaken. >> It was the longest. >> Yeah. And and 2 minutes was or under 2 minutes to be precise was the shortest. Like that that is incredible.

Like bearing in mind that other, you know, other crowdfunding, you know, fractional ownership platforms, you know, typically fund in days or weeks, all of a sudden to move that from days or weeks down to well, under a day and under an hour and then under two minutes is is phenomenal. That must have felt good. That must have made all of those long days, sleepless nights, working weekends feel worth it. It was um it was a very beautiful moment and specifically for me because that property was funded two days before my wedding specifically. >> Wow. >> So I I was >> that's another that's another spanner in the mix. >> I was I was in Lebanon at the time.

I was not with the team on the ground and I was through a call uh and my well my wife right now and my my fiance at the time >> was obviously getting everything ready for the wedding and I'm in the on the place with you >> trying to to fund the property and it was all stressful and we were seeing the transaction coming in less than a minute and we were not understanding what's happening and she was very frustrated but right now we're we're okay married. >> It's been a year now. >> Still married. Oh. >> Uh but yeah, it was just an incredible moment.

Um and it was like a very good wedding present for myself like to to to make sure that yes, property number two is actually proven it it's its model. And actually it was an interesting one because we got it at a very very good price. We've negotiated very well with the with the buyer at the time or the seller. Um and uh which is which only proves kind of that we're trying to provide the best available properties to to the market. >> Yeah, it was it was an incredible feeling. >> Let's say no, it's very cool to watch like I said from a just a pure outsiders perspective. Um but no, incredible to see that and like I said, I'm sure it must have felt felt fantastic. So it's always good to hear.

um ultimately you then tokenized 10 properties >> but then nothing right and and again I think the the purpose of this podcast is not to talk about all of the shiny nice objects but also the challenges.

So tell me how that per that kind of void period or that you know whatever you want to call it has impacted then operationally things at Pryco I guess customer or investor expectation how you manage that and you know you know what what that whether or not that has been an even greater challenge to manage than actually launching the project in the first place >> of course right so we always talk about the kind of the shiny and the beautiful stuff but there are also bumps on the road and you need to to deal with. And I wouldn't call this a bump, right? I would call this kind of a way for us to structure the framework and make it much stronger. >> Yeah.

>> The mandate that was given to us from the get-go was property. >> Yeah. >> So, and we've done like if it would have taken us 6 months to do it, it would have taken us 6 months to do it. >> Yeah. >> It took us two. >> Yeah. >> So, that's one. Number two, after that it was the evaluation time to understand what went wrong and what went right because we need to still remember that this is a pilot program and the only way for it to be perfect means that we need to understand what went wrong and what went right. >> Yeah. >> Um so we've done that. We sat with GLD.

We we shared everything that went right, everything that went wrong, everything that we think that we could potentially enhance and and kind of all the recommendations from every single party including Vra. And in that specific time, Vara launched their new rule book >> uh that would essentially >> uh dictate or or guide uh virtual assets providers on how to issue ARVA tokens. >> Yeah. >> Uh so we took that uh opportunity essentially to work very closely with Vara and control to make sure that all the properties now adhere to the new regulations of uh of of the regulator. And for every property token that is minted, another ARVA token is also minted.

uh next to it and I'm more than happy to kind of shed light on the on what is the difference between both of them. Um so to make sure that we're in line with with with the regulation. >> So that took some time right. So >> uh not only from technology perspective but also there's a lot of policies procedures in the back end uh customer education at the same time. What is an ARV? I tell you what's an ARVA. >> Most retail investors are going to say like I don't know. Right. >> It's not a commonly known term. Exactly. Right. This is a almost a vara specific term certainly in Dubai and and it that education process will take time. >> Exactly.

And then most investors would say but what is the difference for me? And then tech typically nothing changes like from an investor perspective. You're investing in that property. You're getting your ownership. You're getting your rent and that capital appreciation and that's all that the investors will technically care about. Right? But actually the legal framework and the in the back scene needs to be also brought to light. They we need to show the investors what they're investing in and what are the risks that they're exposed to and what are the vehicles that they also exposed to. That's very important and that's in every single regulated entity.

And when you're talking about a virtual uh you know a virtual asset, it's also kind of it's more important to shed light on on these kind of things. So that took a bit of time and uh while building for that we also wanted to launch the secondary marketplace. Uh so that also kind of wasn't the work uh and uh it was delayed because of the also the the the ARVA framework that we had to to build for >> and again we sat down with DD again and we put a date to it. We said okay by Feb 20 of 2026 we need to launch the second day marketplace. Yeah. >> And that's what happened. >> Yeah. Uh and we we launched it on on on Feb 20 and it was also a very good success.

Uh a lot of people that investors that listed their tokens were all able to to sell >> Mhm. >> Uh their tokens at par value and also at discount. Very few of them were were able to to sell it at at at premium. That's only fair. Uh and and the way the the marketplace was structured is for how the investors would like to dictate how the the marketplace will work.

So if everybody lists at at at discount then that's the that's the market everybody's listing at at par that's the market and >> surprisingly the majority of the tokens not surprising actually we we've we've uh we we had anticipated that and the majorities of the tokens would be sold at par and the valuation that it was set by an independent valuator and that's what's been >> and there was one set before the secondary market went live so a new valuation was before the secondary market >> two days before the the marketplace went live. We uh we've conducted the the valuations. The ARVAS were issued.

Everybody had ARVAS before the secondary market was was live and then a new valuation is going to be then generated every 3 months. >> So in that example, this will be probably the end of May, we'll have new valuations on the property. >> And of the 10 properties, I think this is public information. If it's not, tell me to to shut up. But of the 10 properties, how many of them increased in value from >> when they were initially funded? >> Yeah. So we had 10 properties. Two of them went I think slightly down by around 2 to 3%. >> Two of them stayed at par value and then the rest went up in valuation. >> And that's exactly what an asset class is.

It does it's not specifically doesn't always mean that it will always go up. >> Yeah. >> Might go up, it might go down. And then you also have the flexibility of listing at minus and plus 15% if you believe that the valuation is is should be different and you have the option and the choice to to list it at the the price that you want. >> But in the nine nish months I guess between when the properties were funded and and anyone that sold on the secondary, they've still been earning their monthly income, right? >> Absolutely. There's still tenants that needs to be taken care of. There's still rental income that needs to be distributed.

There are still clients also uh that needs to be taken care of. and uh you know answer their questions and their queries and their concerns and and that's very important and that's what we've done. Um it hasn't been extremely easy I would have to say. >> Yeah. >> Uh but that's again part of the challenge.

that's part of being number one uh and the innovator in that space because it's literally paving the road for everyone else to be part of that journey and we're uh we're doing that and uh >> yeah it it it might be very stressful but it would be extremely rewarding down the line when everybody's on board and more players come along and more investors are believe in the in the framework and the system.

So talking of stress, you obviously were able to launch the the secondary market on the 20th of February and then 8 days later, you know, [ __ ] hits the fan in a way that none of us expected um with the conflict that was that was uh initiated in in the region which ultimately led to, you know, uh the UAE sadly being attacked many many many times over and all credit to the UAE armed forces in how they >> of course protected everybody. However, you know, one of the things that did happen was a massive AWS outage, which I don't know anyone that wasn't affected. >> Um, I'm assuming it affected you guys. >> Yeah.

>> And you go from this like and on on the point of stress, you go from this almost euphoric point of, you know, thank goodness, we can now launch the secondary market. We've waited months and months and months for this. We're ready. We're ready to like, oh [ __ ] you know, the platform's down. Our servers are down. Like how do you even manage that roller coaster? Like how do you manage your team? Cuz you're ultimately the GM, right? So you're everyone's looking at you for answers, which I'm sure you don't have, but you got to try and make them up on the fly. I'm I'm speaking from experience. You know, you've got customers, you got investors, you got regulators. Like what do you do?

>> I think >> what did you do? >> Well, I agree. It was even more stressful. And what we we essentially wanted just time to breathe and to kind of enjoy our the success that that we accomplished. And unfortunately the situation has happened. >> But thankfully uh most of our investors >> understand that they one early adopters in that in that technology >> and number two they understood the situation. It's not like it's a fox major. It's out of my hand. It's it's something that has happened to the entire country. Um but there's also ways to to manage the the situation which we've done right. So uh customer communication repeated communication is very important.

Making sure that they are very well aware that yes you're unable to trade right now but your token is secure. Your investments are secure. You're still earning your monthly income >> every single month. So that hasn't changed. Right. >> Z is very aware of this. Vara is extremely aware of this. Same as controlled. everyone is on the same page. >> Yeah.

And we're working towards finding a solution where you know when you have situations like these that you don't anticipate right it's it's impossible yeah right but it's important to have backup plans and and it's and it's in this situation where you learn right um same thing in co by the way a lot of people a lot of companies you know didn't succeed because they didn't have of the >> plan B's or plan C's to to whatever they were building and they learned and we adapted And we came out stronger right now. >> Yeah. >> From uh from the situation that we were in compared to to to 2020.

>> I I mean like as a as residents here of the country and so on because >> we understood that any situation that you might face kind of you need to adapt to it and then build from there and and grow stronger. So we grew stronger, investors understand that, regulators understood that as well. And right now we're we're building towards fixing that and and finding alternative ways to get back the marketplace up and running. And in case a situation like this would happen again, then you have alternatives. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, >> and that's the only way to do it. And and again, I want to repeat this message on the podcast uh kind of more and more.

If you want to innovate, you will have to find challenges. Yeah. >> There is going to be a slap in the face every single day and you're just going to have to get up and then keep keep pushing. Yeah, >> investors are not going to be happy about it, but that's not that's fine. Like it's it's important for for the company to be very clear and very transparent with the investors and make them understand that what you are also going through is unprecedented and your support is definitely much appreciated >> and and and your investments are extremely secure. >> Yeah.

and you know again seeing the cobs on whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn or or wherever you kind of posted them I think you did an incredible job because again it was completely out of your control you know everybody was in the same boat but still people you know certainly from a like you say investment perspective people can obviously be shaky and concerned or fearful and and managing those emotions is really hard um so I think you guys did did a great job in that I think one point I do want to touch on >> um you talk about building stronger you know, we're not just talking about the prop tech ecosystem here or the tokenization space. We are talking about Dubai.

>> And, you know, one of the actually incredible things that's come out of this very, you know, concerning period of time is the commitment that people have to building here, right? Like we said before we started, you haven't been anywhere during this time. I haven't been anywhere. >> Have an Yeah. Your Yeah. Yeah, your your other two options are, you know, slightly questionable, but um but yeah, the we're ultimately, you know, you could have gone somewhere else, right? Lots of people went to Thailand, to the Mold, to whatever, but you didn't. You know, you committed to building here, to staying here, you know, I even we, my wife and I even welcomed a baby during this time.

Um, >> and not only that, I mean, sorry to interrupt, G, but it's not only that, it's it's also important to talk about, and I'm not talking just about myself, but like all the other leaders at Purpco and maybe other companies as well. It's not about only building in the country. It's actually setting also the example for your team that the leader is here, right? And and and they're moving the the company forward. >> Yeah. >> And you have a team that also kind of as as you mentioned like they're looking for answers and they're looking up for you >> and you need to be there. I need to uh I need to answer this question and it's very important. >> Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that, you know, this time has kind of cemented many many many people's belief in building a business here, building a life here, building a career here. Um, and again, it's just it's just one of those unbelievable traits and characteristics of Dubai that I think we both appreciate greatly. So, um, you mentioned a little bit ago about, um, you know, ultimately Cryptoco were first, you know, platform number one. There will be other platforms. Obviously, Tribe is one of them. Um, so let's address it directly. How do you think about competition in the space that you kind of pioneered into? >> Yeah, it only proves the business model that we're trying to build to be honest with you.

And and I with all the modesty, it just gives us a tap on the back that whatever we're trying to build is the right approach because other players want to be in the space. Um and uh and again yeah it just proves the the business model and it's incredibly difficult to be the leader uh or the pioneer on in that specific uh journey because you have nothing to compare with like you don't have a benchmark. You need to set your benchmark.

anyone that comes in has the number one as a benchmark and has obviously different types of innovation that they want to also bring to the table and to differentiate themselves from player A or player B and that's very important but for someone that is building from scratch it's incredibly difficult to okay so what's next for me >> what's going to be my next challenge what's going to be my next innovation um and yeah and that's what we're trying to actually build right now uh in that specific situation and hopefully you you'll see more stuff of Perco me soon. >> Well, we look forward to it. Um, you mentioned about kind of um operating kind of solo.

Um, so obviously Prip Creint was one of one um for well I guess the best part of a year now. >> Um seeing other platforms emerge like Tribe and you know we we will not be the only one for sure. Um, what has that forced you, maybe forced is the wrong word, or nudged you to do differently or better as a as a team, as a brand, as a platform, is there anything that's kind of like been triggered as a result of now not being just one of one? >> I I I think other than coming on, you know, podcasts and playing paddle, >> we all knew from the beginning that we were not never going to be alone in that space. And >> Pryco Blocks is not alone in that space either, right?

So, and we we always try to kind of differentiate differentiate ourselves from the other players that are also very doing extremely well in in the market and that's been our mindset from day one. We we know for a fact that as soon as the pilot phase is done, more players are going to come in and that's only normal and and you get ready for this. So means that you have right now the luxury of the time to to build uh that space to build the customer base to to to build the trust and uh and and and obviously later on a new road map for for more products and innovation.

Uh but it also kind of leaves you in a place where there's someone else coming in that could potentially kind of take that uh away from you and that's that's only fair. That's that's only fine. And and the mindset that we have internally is that that's not focused too much on the noise that's outside. Whatever we are building internally is what we believe is the right thing for us and our our investors. And whoever is building by our side is also kind of building for their own investor and their own success. At the end of the day, we're building towards the same goal. And I believe you have the same mission statement as ours, which is providing access to real estate for literally everyone.

Yeah. So you do you do this in the best possible way. It will only reward me because >> people or or investors on your platform will understand also the importance of investing in fractional real estate or tokenized real estate >> and then they will know the space and then they will get to know Pryco and they will get to know the other players and vice versa, right? So people on my platform might get to know so tribe and other platforms at the same time. So, it's all about the mindset that we that we shared with the team. Uh, and they're quite aware of this and we're doing everything that's possible to make sure that we will remain number one.

Sorry to say, that's our and uh >> he's not we'll cut that sorry bit out. >> We're always going to be sorry at all. >> We will always try to be number one and whoever wants to challenge us, they're welcome and and that's going to be a beautiful competition and beautiful challenge. It will be and I think you know it is important just to state there is a difference between being first and number one but we'll come on to that later. We'll come to that later. Um not that we're competitive at all at Tribe as you as you found out on the paddle court. >> Yeah. >> We won't mention the result. Um >> we won by the way. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're also number one. Yeah. >> We we did well.

We did well to get this far. Um no bringing it back a second. I want uh the amount of times as I mentioned that I've been asked about you know what are you fearful of the competition I think the thing I was more fearful about there not being enough credible players in the space if I'm perfectly honest you know you guys have pioneered you know we do we do look up to you as you know the innovator in the space and we have a tremendous amount of respect and and the fact that you're here the fact that we have played paddled you know together well against each other as as tribes versus Pripco and had a great amount of fun and a great conversation afterwards.

And the fact that you and uh Jad welcomed me into your office many months ago, I mean that that's a testament to you as a as a leader, as a as a team and and as a business. Um but the the thing that I that makes me laugh actually when people ask me about competition is, you know, are you worried about Pryco? Are you worried about others? No, I'm not. And I tell you why.

Because you know what we're doing as a business model in general is actually creating a layer on top of a if you look at Dubai alone $250 billion you know market annually right we're not taking away from that we're adding a layer on top >> and if you guys could do $250 billion of transactions alone my goodness like you know what a what a rocket ship that would be yeah I I would love that for you but you can't right that's the reality right maybe at a point in time you can do a billion or two right or 2.5 which is 1% of the total volume of transactions again in Dubai alone and I'm sure I know you guys are not looking at Dubai solely forever neither are we so you know from a competition perspective I think the fact that we can um you know encourage and drive and motivate each other to innovate uh to continue to innovate because I think innovating once is great but you can't stop um so like you said you've used that time to to rebuild some things learn from things.

I think you know from a a competition perspective from our side at tribe what is good about it is that we can continue to to learn from each other test things tweak things you know bring new products or new nuances to market and again help elevate each other and I think that's the best outcome really is that we will all the whole market whoever comes next whoever is the other players in in due course we can all kind of learn and grow together as a as a brand new market and I think that's a very rare um place to be in, right, where there's literally, you know, a handful of players craving a new market from scratch.

So, um yeah, like I said, I think that that's really really important for to consider when you talk about competition. I think the default and the easy and I would argue lazy way of assessing competition is just assuming that, you know, we spend all day every day worrying about each other. Quite the odd. we welcome each other into each other's offices, each other's podcasts and talk openly about the market. Um, where do you think however as other platforms come in, the market does still need to evolve that any um opportunities for improvement from a a regulatory perspective, technical perspective, maybe it's a just a customer or market understanding perspective.

What do you think the gaps are? >> Yeah, always. And not specifically in in real estate, I think in the financial services as a whole. I mean if you just take a bit of stat uh 50% of the region's wealth is held in cash in the bank.

So ju just like take a step back from there and understand like why >> is there you know where's the education first are people educated enough about investing and not just talking about real estate let's just talk about in general first here >> people are are not well educated about you know >> deploying their money for for the for the better future and and number two uh the options that are available at the time like probably like five six years ago they were quite minimal right so right now you have a lot of options >> yeah And that's great and that's what Dubai actually u did very well with the regulators bringing more player from uh kind of internationally but also help develop local players to to build that space and um offer it to to to the market.

So there's always going to be a lot of challenges in in terms of educating the customer on tokenization and and and investing in real estate because the mindset initially is where do I put my money and cash in the bank? And as a as an Arab man when I grew up um the first thing that my parents would tell me as soon as you get your first income you need to buy a home. >> You need to buy a home. >> Why? Uh I I don't I'm I'm 21. Reit is I mean buying home also is not extremely uh affordable, right? I cannot get put my down payment immediately and that might not be my best alternative investment, right? Or like my my uh uh like what's suited for me at at the time.

So >> what's very important is to have a kind of a diversified portfolio of all all different asset classes. That's the mindset that I grew up in and it's very similar to everyone also here in in the in the region of we only know cash and we only know real estate >> fixed deposit and real estate. But what what are the alternatives that you have? Uh how do you construct a diversified portfolio that gives you exposure to many different asset classes in case real estate doesn't do well for a specific period of time. You have alternatives.

you have different asset assets are essentially balancing your your your portfolio and and that that's the key challenge and the the idea that I'm trying to kind of pass along is educating the investor is extremely important for the launch of any new kind of initiative and product. uh and kind of coming down to tokenization, it's not only about investing, but it's also about the technology that you need to uh educate them on >> and and so when we talk about Pryco, when we talk about tribe, obviously the conversation naturally steers towards real estate as the underlying asset, right?

That the that the ARVA references, >> but actually, you know, on the on the simplest kind of basis really we are investment platforms, right? where you are in investing in an alternative asset to a stock or a crypto or a or or a or or a bond or or any other gold commodity etc. So as an investment platform arguably the most valuable currency is trust >> 100%. So, how do you build that in a in a brand new space and in a market or in a region as you've just mentioned that typically prefers to sit on cash or physically sit on real estate? >> Yeah. >> How do how do you build that credibility?

>> So, a couple of things and you rightly said that like a lot of companies and startups start from literally nothing and they want to build that reputation. Uh so number one and that's kind of your seal of approval is getting that license. Yeah. Being regulated >> which means proving to a regulator that you have policies, structures, technology that are robust. Yeah. >> That you can take to the market and offer them to investors. That's step number one.

And I know when you the investor sees that you're regulated by you know VAR as like one of the largest regulators probably the the pioneer of virtual asset regulators in the world >> that gives you that gives the investor confidence and and it doesn't come like this right it's a lot of work it's a lot of effort concretely exactly >> doesn't come cheaply agree >> and and you understand that firsthand and it also this is also the same thing with the FSA which is one of the largest and oldest regulators here in the region. Getting that stamp of approval or or essentially that regulation is that license is is is very important. That's step number one.

>> Step number two is communicate, communicate, communicate. Always make sure that you are speaking with the customer. Okay. I I'll tell you something. For me, there are two things where you always need customer support and and and and physical or like a human interaction. >> Yeah. food and investment. >> Don't touch my food and don't touch my money. So essentially if I if my delivery is late, I want to understand why is it late and I want to speak with the Talabat or Kadium customer support and understand why. And if something is happening with my investment, I I really want to speak with a person. I don't want to speak with an AI chatbot, right? So that also builds trust.

You can always use AI to kind of for the FAQs and kind of being able to address a question immediately, but you always need someone, a relationship manager or human being at the end or just behind that that door to be able to address every single u questions and queries that the customer has. So, communication, communication, communication is extremely important. And that's by phone call, by WhatsApp, by email, by social media. And what you're doing is also here at tribe and in these kind of podcasts it's extremely important, right?

Because you're not only kind of talking about the space itself, you're actually branding yourself as a company and all these players that are coming and and having a chat with you only makes your your brand even even stronger, right? So and that's kudos to you before even launching, right? So that that's even it's even better. Um, so I think these two points for any startup or any whether it's in propt tech or not that wants to enter the financial space, they need to focus on these two points. >> Yeah. No, very well put. And um, don't touch my food, don't touch my money, I think is definitely the name of this podcast. So yeah, thank you for that as well.

Um, you know, as as a you know, can we still call Pryco a startup? Do you call yourselves a startup? Are you a growth company now? >> I don't like labels to be honest. Startup, scale up. corporate that doesn't have >> as an innovator then as an innovator >> how how do you balance the need to to grow and to continue to innovate and work in so you manage both blocks and mint two very heavily regulated environments how do you manage that tradeoff if you will >> are we talking specifically between blocks and mint or >> just a just as a as a as a business right the the the thing that I like to talk about is is growth pains growth challenges growth opportunities, right?

So, you've got Pryco Blocks which has now funded, you know, a number of properties. You got Pryco Mint that has pioneered in the tokenization space. Blocks is DFSA regulated. Mint is VA regulated. >> Both of those still need to innovate, right? I know you brought um uh flip the blocks recently. Um so, new products, new offerings again.

How do you trade off that heavy kind of um tail of regul regulation because things have to be done properly there's no other way% >> but also the need for speed how do you how do you >> okay so we need to understand the base first >> both platforms are kind of solving for the same mission >> and and the team that is building these two platforms understand that and they're also kind of uh building towards that right so the regulations might different but quite similar in a sense.

So there are some nuances between perco and and percomment and that's why we have a compliance team that is one dedicated to to that and that's also uh by regulation another one dedicated to to perco and one person kind of managing both as a hat. So understanding uh kind of to to manage both platforms but also kind of had that one person being able to to to be there and um and and you know understanding the risk of of both platforms. The team uh also understand that mission statement. Understanding the customer need is also very important. So in the example of flip the blocks why we had to launch this product our bread and butter is ready residential.

you put it you put it out there, you rent it out. It's very it's very straightforward and you get the tenant and you move on. >> Investors are looking for returns that are higher that are uh kind of also in in a shorter period of time and there is a different risk appetite to to the product and so you listen uh you have product calls with with the with the clients. It didn't take us 2 days to to launch the blogs. It actually took us quite some time to make sure that this is the right product that we we want to to to launch next. And that's the same thing with every single other product that we want to launch whether it's on mint or or on block.

So we have a product team that also sits with clients and understand their needs and we take our time and and and we we take it live and and and launch it in the market. But and my kind of role and responsibility at at the company is to kind of wear both hats. the growth hat. Yeah. >> Understanding what needs to be done next and essentially how do we fly and how do we speed and how how do we make sure that okay as competitors are are entering and how do we differentiate ourselves and the current comp competitors that we have also in the market.

but also the other hat of being there with the feet on the ground and understanding the day-to-day operation and how customers are essentially being taken care of because uh that's also uh extremely difficult. Um so what we've also done at at the company and that's also kudos to to the leadership and the seuite we've hired uh a lot of uh you know team members to to join uh not only on with perco but across the board with with prepco and also a new layer of seuite that comes in with this experience to be able to drive this company from you want to call it a startup to a scale up to a much robust and and and strong company. Um, and it only comes with people with experience, right?

Uh, to drive us into from from that point A to point B. And we we've done that and we're seeing that kind of materialize more and more. It's been like 3 months that the new team has has been here. And I can only say positive things about what the future of Perco can look like. Yeah, it's it is a bit of a a strange dichotomy when you are both the accelerator and the brake at the same time where you have to continue to look ahead and accelerate but at the same time you know put your foot on the brake to make sure you kind of stay within the regulatory frameworks of which you're operating under two. Um so yeah we have a you know our level of respect is is even higher.

Um quick question um let's talk about the space now whether it's crowdfunding DFSA regulated or tokenization via regulated um what types of companies will fail coming into this space what what what are what are the things that someone will get wrong that will probably lead to their downfall quite quickly or painfully >> uh very frankly I'm not sure if I should say this but >> now you've absolutely got to say it now you've said that Okay, I think that developers think and I'm talking specifically about tokenization. I think that developers that they want to enter the space think that they will be able to solve all their inventory problem altogether.

>> Y every single developer that we spoke to, they want to enter the tokenization space and that's great, right? They want to use tokenization as their new sales channel, which is amazing, great, innovative, good job. Yeah. >> However, I believe and based on the conversation that we've had is that they will likely sell the unused inventory, the ones that haven't been sold, uh, which is not fair, not fair to the investor and not fair to the space that we're trying to build and overall just not the right move, right? So what I would advise uh the the developers actually to partner with platforms such as ours platforms you know such as such as yours. Do not try and reinvent the wheel.

Don't build your own tokenization platform because you're going to fail from day one. >> The reason behind that is you're not a tech company. Your core or like your bread and butter is real estate. >> Yeah. The opposite. >> The traditional way. >> And that's great and that's what you're great at. Yeah, >> let us do the tech part, let us do the innovative innovation part and and plug in with us. And that's as you me as you mentioned like the space is huge for everyone. You you're welcome to join the space, right? But you need to do it right because we understand as a business that one being regulated what it means. >> Yeah.

and to v visav the the investor how to kind of treat the retail investor because the someone that can buy a 50 million dirham property. So, so not the same persona of someone that wants to invest 10,000 their homes in a fractional ownership. >> No. >> And we understand that you understand that. >> Yeah. >> And we know how to manage uh these investors and it's a very important for for these developers to understand that selling your unused inventory is only going to bring more risk >> to to to the market and to the industry. And that's not the right move. uh if you want to add tokenization as part of your sales channel, it needs to be as equal as your inventory that you're selling generally.

>> Yeah. >> And it would, in my opinion, it would have to be trusted developers, the ones that are up and coming. I mean, they might be, you know, it might be a solution for them to kind of sell faster, but what if they wouldn't able to finish the project? What do you do? >> Yeah. you're now dealing with thousands of retail investors with money stock. Yeah. >> And that's extremely risky. Um so again and that's partly why the reason uh of plan to organization is not yet here because the framework needs to be set perfectly well before it's getting launched. >> Yeah, I think it's something that we're all we're all very excited about but equally understand that it's something you can't rush.

Um again with trust being that that most valued currency in in this uh space. Um so looking at it from the other other end of the spectrum then if we sit down again in 3 years time >> what will have defined the winners or the winner in this uh tokenization space or tokenization race if you want to call it that. Um what are the the fundamental uh values or pillars of those businesses that will succeed? Again, trust is number one. Understanding or or making it clear to the investors uh what you're trying to build for the future is only for the benefit of of the investor and and making sure you're always adhering to the regulations and and and protecting the best interest of of the customer.

And building a a brand image that goes beyond kind of also the the niche that you're that you're building in right now. it's Dubai and then it can go all the way to the to the Emirates and then globally um and and building that brand is is is incredibly important and the people that were succeed as well especially in real estate tokenization are the ones that also understand the core of real estate um because yes you can be a tech provider but you also need to understand what's happening on the back end right so yeah yeah you can put the property and get it tokenized and then what and then what yeah >> you still need to find a tenant you still need to manage the property.

There's still maintenance that that needs to happen. There's still going to be complaints. There's still going to be a lot of stuff that you need to to to have in place. So, and it's understanding that core layer that will only get you to to the place that you want. So, a trust customer uh communication and and uh that's also important. But also, uh something that's very crucial is understanding the operation aspect of of the business. Do not neglect that. >> Yeah.

No, I think that that's very good advice and again the the purpose of this podcast is not just for for us but also for others looking at the space whether that's here in Dubai, whether that's in >> you know other countries around the world, other markets and and I think that that's very very very good advice there. Okay.

So um final question um the purpose of block byb block is effectively documenting tribes journey building in public not being afraid to celebrate our successes like the paddle match against your team um or the failures um you know the the challenges the banking challenges and the challenges and the challenges um you know the obst >> you really seem not to like the banks no comment you want to talk about that I do want to talk about it to my therapist um so Um, one of the question, the final question I'd like to ask you is, um, what is your prediction for Trib's road ahead? Uh, we've obviously heard about Pryco. Um, we have a huge amount of respect for what you've built, where you're going.

Um, I'd love to hear what you think for Tribe are both the opportunities and the obstacles in the next, I guess, 6 to 12 months. >> First of all, I have to say that I also have a huge amount of respect for you, Gary, and and your team at Tribe.

Um I think that a lot of players in the markets shy away from you know lending or like extending the arm or extending the hand to to to the counterpart or to the to the competitor essentially uh because they're afraid of you you stole my idea or you're doing the same thing as I'm doing I'm not going to share with you and so and and and you're building something completely different which I have huge respect for um and uh and and I can only salute you for that. Um, and because before you've even launched, you're building tribe with that openness, with this, you know, transparency is only going to prove to your investors and your client base that you're a trustworthy company.

um that you're building for not only for you know the growth of of of tribe and the success of your employees and and the building and and the and the uh the company that you're trying to build but also to the success of the investors uh and their returns and their investment down the line. So that's incredibly um powerful what you're trying to do and again huge amount of respect looking looking forward to to your launch uh hopefully coming very soon and I really hope that we can uh come back to another episode and and talk about your launch your your your challenges and the success that yeah and I want to hear all all of it from from from you personally. Right.

So, so really looking forward to that and and again we're we're always here. Um you know where our offices is, you know where the paddle court is. So if you play other other types of sport, we're also happy to compete. Uh let us know there >> and and and so thank you very much by the way, Joseph. Um and and what do you think is our greatest obstacle other than the number one player in the space? Uh, I think your greatest obstacle is going to be, you know, navigating the uncertainty of, you know, life throwing a curveball at you, right? Because we've literally had 16 curve ball in in a year.

>> Uh, and you're going to face that and you're gonna and you're probably going to call me and ask, "Hey, how can I how did how did I manage to to go around that?" And maybe you've had the challenge that um that I want to also know how how to kind of resolve. I might also give you a call, but it's the uncertainty. Um it's the and and we live in that space, right? So, and that's what all innovation is all about. And you're going to you're going to have to find a solution for it. Uh because if you don't find a solution for it, then you haven't done anything. You haven't innovated. You haven't proven uh your business model. And and you know, uh you go back to to square one.

And innovating is about falling and standing up and then falling again. Standing up, keep running uh and then reaching to the destination one way or another. And that's going to be your toughest challenge for sure. >> Marvelously put, Joseph, uh thank you again uh to you for coming on today for for welcoming us into the space uh with both open arms and a competitive spirit. Um we've we've really enjoyed it. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. I've really enjoyed the conversation today. Thank you. Uh and yes, my phone is always on uh for you and and your team and I know vice versa.

And I'm very much looking forward to sitting down and talking about our launch on on either another episode of BlockbyBlock or or on uh on on your equivalent. >> Amazing. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.