What Does It Take to Build a Business That Lasts in a Regulated Industry?

I get uh in in trouble for for the answer here. >> Ooh, hang on. For full disclosure, Seb is sick. It's a fairly accurate reflection of building tribe. You just keep pushing on. >> This is the constant veil under which we exist all the time. You can build with anything but compliance at its very core. Cutting corners is a really bad idea, right? Uh you're going to end up probably hitting a brick wall.

Quite frankly, >> startup does not have to equal chaos or immaturity. And particularly the business that we're now building with tribe that's not even an option. >> Yeah. >> Right. We have to build a fully regulated highly compliant strong governance business. Greatest challenge we deal with on a daily basis is to be okay with the fact that things may take a week longer or 2 weeks longer because it needs to be done right.

>> Yeah. >> The challenge becomes in the external narrative. Commercial partners, investors, etc., etc. advisers, they know what they're getting themselves involved in. Very few people will say, "Oh, I'm going to take the shortcut, but I left instead of right." It may financially damage my business. This happens all the time. >> Being the founder of a startup is a very hard, very lonely, very unrewarding place.

You got to be a very specific kind of person to be able to keep going, deal with all of the [ __ ] from every angle. It's a very frustrating experience at times as well, right? The the tokens that they say that we're going to issue against these asset class, that is not actually the product. The core product is is really trust. Ultimately, we're building this, you know, block byb block in public.

So, game on to the competition. Uh, bring it on. Catch us if you can. >> Welcome back to Blockby. Um, my commitment to building Tribe and Public and the video audio version of the Substack. So, today I'm joined by Sebastian Agran, the COO and co-founder of Tribe. And one of the myths of building an early stage startup is that you must always do more. You must always move faster. You must always build more features into your product.

And whilst I'm absolutely an advocate of moving fast and doing as much as possible, actually one of the biggest challenges that any startup has and actually the the true test of building a great startup is the ability to say no, the ability to move slowly when slow movement is required and not to, I guess, outrun yourself and run out of gas too soon. Um, so I'm delighted to have Seb on today. Um, Seb is obviously an instrumental player at at Tribe and he he manages the engine room, if you will.

He oversees everything from our regulatory licensing to our product evolution to our supply demand uh calculations and and and management if you will. So, he has his finger on the pulse uh to say the least. So, Zeb, welcome to Blockby. >> Thank you very much. Um, I certainly try to have my finger on the pulse. I'm not sure if I manage every day. >> Keep trying. keep trying >> and uh this is uh exciting enough our first podcast together so I'm really looking forward to to to today's conversation and uh I think you nail you kind of hit the nail on the head in the sense that it'

s a it's a continuous iteration all the time of when is the right time to do X over Y uh and the ability to say no uh is certainly core to to longevity both on a personal level but also the I guess tribe as a ventures there's ability to actually be here in 5 years or 10 years. Uh so we don't we don't run out of gas uh physically as humans as well as the the company itself and the journey we're on. >> I mean that's kind of ironic because for full disclosure, Seb is sick.

Um so you you know you you're you're feeling it today. Um so firstly thank you for for digging deep and coming on regardless. And I think it's uh it's a fairly accurate reflection of I guess life uh recently certainly building tribe and and venture building in that you just keep pushing on right or wrong and there's an argument that you know you shouldn't keep pushing on but yeah I appreciate you coming in and and doing this today despite the fact you know not feeling too great.

Um, and as you said, the the mission that we're kind of serving right now with Tribe is building a mature business from day one. >> Just, you know, startup does not have to equal chaos or immaturity. And particularly the business that we're now building with Tribe, >> that's not even an option. >> Yeah. >> Right. Uh, we have to build a a fully regulated, you know, highly compliant, strong governance business.

um let alone you know institutional grade technology blah blah blah blah blah. Um so let's start with your role before we go into any anything else. Obviously at at tribe you're the COO as I mentioned you have your your kind of uh your purview if you will is across the entire business. Um, and your job is to both convert our ambitions, collective ambitions into reality, but also to be the filter, >> right?

Is that fair is that a fair assessment? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Um, >> how how do you define if you were to explain your role, how would you kind of define your role? >> Um, and specifically in the context of tribe. >> Yeah, it's a good question. Um I think in the context of tribe the question is even more uh prudent because we are a regulated business right and I'm almost act as a almost a constant feasibility check in the sense that you have to consistently ask the question whatever it is that we're pursuing whether it's product development or or uh writing up policies according to the rule books for VAR uh what pursuing new commercial opportunities is what needs to be hold true for this to be a goal versus a no-go, right?

Um because the tradeoffs are are obviously for all early stages massive. Uh but for a regulated startup, certainly one that's so early stage as we are are perhaps life and death, right? Um, so I would say trying to keep your finger on the pulse in the sense that you need to know how all of the parts of the organization stitch together and if you pull on a lever on this side, what actually happens on this side, right, it matters a lot.

Um, so that that's the way I I try to conduct myself dayto-day is to be the balance between enablement and actually saying this isn't going to work because of 1 2 3 or XY Z. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you don't do it now, right? Um it maybe become a a a a future project or whatever because you don't have the time or the resources or the capacity uh or or the regulatory maturity to be able to pursue it.

So yeah, that feasibility layer and then constantly uh I guess holding ourselves accountable to whether it makes sense for for us as a regulated business to do it or not. >> And let's go back to the the beginning then. Uh so obviously we've known each other several years uh worked together previously. When we first started talking about tribe, >> what did you think was the problem that we were trying to solve or you know what what were you signing up to I guess collectively together you know to to go and you know work towards solving >> and that that's part one and part two the question is how has that changed >> the early conversations And I think our sort of collective desire was around this narrative of of accessibility.

I believe that was a major part of of the I guess the underlying driver for for why should tribe quite frankly be allowed to exist, right? uh what problem does it solve and and what value does it bring to the world uh to to a degree that's that's rooted in how do you make the asset class that is real estate um more accessible to to the masses right I think a lot of the time the the ecosystem that we exist in and the conversation we have a lot is they they default to think that that equates to you know the average normal person uh what we I guess we would call kind of retail type customers or retail investors having access to real estate because the the entry threshold is quite high.

>> Mhm. >> But the same logic actually also applies to um you know qualified investors or or even to some degree um perhaps smaller institutions getting into the even less accessible layers of of real estate like you're talking about industrial real estate to commercial real estate. Um so that that concept of accessibility while it still holds true and it actually sits I would say across the the value chain or the spectrum of of what is real estate as an asset class for me the there definitely has been a fundamental shift right uh and it has been the real estate uh as an asset clas

s and the and the the tokens so to say that we're going to issue against this asset class once we're operating live knock on wood soon um >> that is not actually the product And what we are pursuing and building is really a version of regulated financial infrastructure, right? Only our financial instrument is is virtual in nature, right? They're virtual assets as opposed to anything else. Um, >> so and you think about financial services as businesses, uh, the core product is is really trust, right?

You're building uh a a brand. uh you're building a compliance and a and an infrastructure that consumers or institutions or whatever whomever you're serving actually trusts sufficiently to be able to deploy their hardearned money into, right? Uh and obviously with some sort of financial gain at the end of it. That's ultimately the goal of the of the product. So yeah, it has definitely shifted from this is the problem we're solving.

we're building towards that accessibility uh to what we're really doing here is creating financial services infrastructure >> um >> to be able to unlock that use case and also many others probably as we've learned along the journey there's so many opportunities and so many paths to go down which is a whole other conversation right >> that maybe that will be the next conversation I think it is worth mentioning that a big part of the early conversation was rooted in I guess frustration around um the lack of accessibility to real estate in a market that was just going up and up and up and up.

And as the market was going up and up and up, um accessibility was going down and down and down and the gap between those that owned and those that didn't just became increasingly wider. And it is a problem, you know, it is a problem we still are working very hard towards solving. But like you said, in in solving for that problem, it's opened up a whole bunch of other opportunities for us to tackle uh embrace uh and potentially benefit from along the way.

Um >> I guess let's let's look at like how we how we developed the discipline or the culture I guess of restraint um if you will. Um because it is hard you know in a in a green field in an area that you know there's very few licensed vasps you know there's been very few tokenized you know uh properties at a at a native land registry uh level. It it would be easy to get over excited and carried away and I'm definitely the most guilty of of that.

So uh you know I'll throw that out there before I get called out on it. Yeah. Um, but you know, what are the what are some of the things that we consciously chose not to do? Because again, this the whole conversation is is how we're building and building this, you know, block by block in public. >> And it's very easy to show off the things that that we do, but it's quite easy actually to forget the things that we don't.

>> And I think that would be worth kind of digging into a little bit. Is there anything that can you can uh think of that comes to mind that we consciously chose not to do or not to build >> early on? Well, yes, I would say. I mean, honestly, it happens almost like every week. There's there's an opportunity of some kind, whether that's in the form of a a feature or in the form of a uh a new hypothetical use case or problem that you could pursue, whether that's sort of I guess us as a as a company, as a leadership team that cook up that idea in a conversation or in many cases like external parties coming in and saying, "I heard about tokenization.

kind of sounds like the best thing since sliced bread. Can you tokenize this, right? That happens all the time. Um, >> but also geographical expansion, uh, which I think is quite it's prudent to all startup companies. like it's typically better to try and limit yourself to to fewer single markets in the early days, but it adds a a whole other level of of complexity when you're dealing with a regulated business because each jurisdiction, each country and some instances within the same country, you have municipalities or emirates or states or whatever that have slightly different legal frameworks.

Um so the there are two for tribe there are two things um that I that we revisit all the time that I know have been in the conversation in the mix really some of the first conversations um one is the geographical expansion right um you know we've had a uh several interactions with other countries uh in in various ways and whilst we have decided to pursue one or two of those there have been more in the mix right uh and I think it's very important to pursue them in um kind of having a at the top of the funnel quite a wide type approach to evaluate those opportunities.

>> The trick really for me lies in where do you have decision gates to protect your time and your resources. Uh I think we're quite good at that as a team. uh if that's by by virtue of how we structure the way we work or or the fact that this isn't our first rodeo but that's the way you safeguard not going too far into a process by saying >> for us to go to the next stage with whatever pursuit it is um again product feature or or market whatever >> what has to come true right we have to accomplish this or we have to learn that or whatever that might be so you know for for our conversations and our sort of exploratory early days with with Qatar as a market for example That was true, right?

We did exactly that. We set up a plan. Here's what has to happen. If we don't hit whatever these milestones, it doesn't make sense to move to to stage two. Yeah, that is a really big one. Um, and I think that if you talk about product or features, one thing that continuously comes up is is different asset classes, right? And building product or features as well as obviously regatory capabilities um for for different uh asset classes was pretty much a hard no from the get- go.

we decided we're going to stay in the uh the real estate lane for now. Whether that's true 6 months from now or 12 months from now, well, it will follow a similar process, right? Um but that has been a >> a conversation and uh that has always concluded in no we're sticking to real estate despite >> gold mines, oil reserves that's coming at us from all label the example. So yeah, um >> mines, oil reserves.

>> Yeah. um you know certain you know certain assets whether it's kind of commodity based or art or yeah you name it there's uh private jets I think was one of the first ones um >> still interested still interested in that one not going to lie yeah yachts yeah super mega yachts um >> I guess the the Qatar example is a good one where there was a good amount of healthy internal debate as to the relevancy of the market to us um based on the regulatory maturity in that market versus how we viewed the regulatory uh frameworks maturity here and I think it's fair to say there was so

me internal disagreement or >> jousting >> jousting yeah um and again I think it's important to highlight that because you have to allow for that differing of opinion or different perspectives and they all have to allow you have to allow them to all come up and and those opinions or those views to kind of settle um as well as then make a decision as to go or not go or not now, maybe later.

Um and I think the the the Katar one is is a very good example where you know we went from very excited to very skeptical to a little bit excited again to then very excited again and we almost went full spectrum back forward and back again. Um and to a point now where I think as a business we are very bullish on on that market. Uh we have some great support, great investors. You know the the digital assets lab looks like an incredible pathway for us.

Maybe the sandbox as well. We're heading over there to web summit um also. So so yeah, I think it it's not every decision is black and white. Not every decision is is is yes or no immediately. Sometimes it takes a little bit of jousting and and think you know sitting on and I think that's one of the the the strengths of character of the tribe team um across the board not just leadership team but that you know the whole team have that ability to surface their opinion but also respect and and you know listen to others to make a well-informed decision.

>> Yeah. How do you distinguish or how do we distinguish at tribe between something that sounds good but not right now and filtering and applying then no that's absolutely not for us. >> Yeah, I think the starting point for tribe and I I believe the starting point honestly has to be the same for this is purely from a from a business perspective now. Um I would say you have to know why you're doing what you're doing right um like if you don't have so we have underlying foundational principles values etc etc what have we set out to to achieve here >> because it makes the the ne

ver definition quite easy right putting down your foot and saying this is a hard no becomes binary when you know that it's conflicting with what you set out to achieve right Um and I said that's quite easy for us. Uh I have found it quite easy for us even on an individual level a tribe a person within our within our team whether they're know an executive or founder or not is is quite irrelevant. Everyone knows why we're here what we're here to do because you know we have our mission and our vision and our values and the reason for our existence very well documented.

>> Mh. Therefore, I believe that anyone who interacts with tribe has the ability to vet those uh opportunities off the bat without even having a conversation about it and knowing straight away if this is a hard no or not, right? >> Um >> the crux lies in the >> perhaps not now, but when and why, right? Um uh and that is a I would say a whilst you can follow perhaps a structured framework for us it's it's a discussion or we're very we're extremely good at at at conversing everyone like you're right to point out everyone has a strong opinion right uh and we are I know we'

re good at creating a safe space if you will because it starts with that right do you feel safe at >> with having conflicting views uh and can we hold space for those kind of conversations um and that's about relationships Okay, we're we have good relationships within the organization. So that conversation or those discussions while they may get very heated and they they do get very heated sometimes.

Um they always take place, right? They take place really on a weekly basis and they have to be outcome oriented, right? That's the the goal here. We we're going into this with a common goal and that is to solve something or learn something, right? And we are not against each other. We may we may joust or we may debate. So >> conversation is the answer. That's the way we we solve perhaps not now uh but when and why and then digging into the details what is required for this to be important or prioritize uh whether that's a resource question or a timing or is the market ready for it or or

do we want to do it right obviously this matters too um so yeah that that would be my thoughts around this >> ultimately we're building a you know we're six seven months in as a as a startup still very early stage age as as far as kind of startups are kind of classified. But we're building a business in a very wellregulated space is a better way of putting it. Um but you know you have to now look at tradeoffs if you will in the sense of startups typ as I mentioned earlier typically have to move forward faster than bigger more mature organizations in order to survive to you know to build momentum whatever it whatever it is that they need to do.

But on the other hand in regulated environments you have you have no choice but to do things properly. >> Yeah. >> So for for us do you are there any examples where you feel that not necessarily a compromise but it friction has been created from the need and desire to move fast but the absolute necessity to do things properly. You know would that be a VAR licensing thing or a product thing or a infosc thing?

Is there any kind of examples you can think of in that respect? >> Yeah. How many? >> I might I might get uh in trouble for for the answer here. >> This is the the constant veil under which we exist all the time, right? It's not a I wouldn't say it's a single isolated uh you know pursuit or event or whatever. Um the the reality is that if you want to build in a regulated space, whether it's virtual assets or something else, yeah, >> if if you and perhaps naively so, we had this idea prior to kicking this off too that you can build with anything but compliance at its very core, you're wrong.

And that's it. You have to build with the regulator and understand the ecosystem that you're looking to operate within. >> Yeah. uh intimately, right? Uh and if you do that, you will move fast by going slow or however you put it, right? Um cutting corners is a really bad idea in in regulated businesses because it's going to >> uh you're not going to get anywhere, right? Uh you're going to end up uh probably hitting a brick wall quite frankly.

So I would say this is for me anyway the a necessity and the greatest challenge we deal with on a on a daily basis is to be okay with the fact that things may take a week longer or two weeks longer because it needs to be done right. Yeah. >> Um the challenge with it really is in my view in a way it's no longer internal. Right. We know this now. We have been doing this for long enough even though we haven't been doing it for long enough.

there are many hours we've put in in getting to where we are. >> The challenge becomes in the external narrative, right? >> Um I'm talking about commercial partners, investors, etc., etc., advisers and that perhaps aren't as uh as close to the operational reality of of of building within a regulated environment and making sure that they're on board, right? They understand the journey we're on.

Um and that they know what they're getting themselves involved in. Um that that is the probably the the greater challenge that we have ahead. Um so I also don't think it's going to disappear right just because we go you know operation live and and to market in the in the very near future >> that's always going to be there right um the regulators just shift from licensing to you know working with us and supervising us.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then you mentioned shortcuts. If you look at other other businesses or just startups in general, what do in in your view other founders or founders or aspiring founders maybe um what are the the costs to those that take the shortcuts? You know, is it financial? Is it opportunity cost? Is it reputational? Is it something else? It can probably be a bit of both reputation and financial.

Uh those probably the big ones. Um the way I would look at is is if you take a shortcut if like what's the worst scenario in terms of the outcome, right? Um everyone can think about the best case outcome because that's why you take the shortcut to get there faster, make more money or whatever it is. what's the worst case scen sorry here um and can you mitigate for that and is is it uh reversible or irreversible as a decision right um >> I think few founders that are savvy enough to understand the mechanics of their own business would take a decision that has the chance of at least knowin

gly financially like backlash on them right because >> yes we all set out and most people anyway set out to like solve real world problems right and do something that's core to our beliefs or our mission, whatever you're on. But very few people will say, "I'm going to take the shortcut, but I, you know, if it goes left instead of right, it may financially damage my business." Um, brand and reputation.

However, we've seen misfire on a number of occasions and a number of industries where it might not be um whilst the action is conscious um they they don't understand how it's going to land with their customer base or something. think about marketing campaigns and whatnot. Um, >> so I would say, you know, brand is probably the more more likely and and and uh one that happens the most. Um, >> product and technology is a whole other conversation, right?

Um, taking shortcuts and building features and coding and again, if you're in a regulated environment, it's not a thing because we have, you know, penetration testing and stuff on on our on our stack. So if we do that the reports will show that and the regular regulators will say go back to the drawing board and kind of start over. This happens all the time right people build bad product and crashes and you lose your users and kind get back back to the 01 basically.

Um but yeah brand I would say is the the biggest the biggest one. >> Okay so let's let's take a look uh inside uh tribe uh let's call it the the founding room or the founding circle. Oh dear. Uh yeah, obviously um read a lot of WhatsApp. >> Shout out to to the other the other guys who who come on as well. So obviously myself, yourself, Alistister, Hunter, uh Akmad, our chairman, you know, the founding tribe if you will.

Um we have some kind of early early kind of executive joiners as well. Obviously Dennis, uh Benoir more recently on the product side, Jay, um Anthony, etc. So, and and more recently Cormarmac who's joined the team as well. So, we're a small but pretty pretty mighty team. >> Very mighty. >> Um, not to mention Ivan on the design side and Abdullah behind the camera. U, JQ, Michelle, must forget Michelle.

>> Um, so, but looking at the founding, like the founding tribe, if you will. Um there's you know particularly on the executive team there's some really strong characters really strong opinions as you've mentioned I had noticed >> and I have and you know when when there is a disagreement or a conflicting of views how has that led us forward you know what actually happens like talk us through that that kind of process from from uh you know the the first first intense spark to uh you know the the smoke after the flames have gone out if you will.

>> Yeah. Disclaimer there there this is not a trick question. This is us being completely honest. >> This is us you know telling it how it is and you know the guys that are not here being able to validate it because again if if anyone says that everyone always agrees with each other and everything's apples and roses I think they're lying. >> Yeah. I also think it would be a problem.

Right. And this is our second venture now. We're working together and and and sort of building in early to growth stages. Um and if you have a bunch of yes men and women in your organization, >> that's not a good thing. Yeah. >> Right. You want uh diversity of opinion. You want diversity of experience. um it's about managing how those difference opinions and so on are um communicated >> right >> and the fact that they actually are communicated right and I think that's this that's the starting point back to the kind of the earlier comment where if someone doesn't feel safe in sharing a you know a view that they know might not land super well with the CEO or or anyone else within the organization That's a bad starting point.

So the the step number one is create an environment where people feel psychologically safe to actually have the conversation. We're good at that. I know we're good at that, right? Because we've done it. Uh and we are we disagree and sometimes argue certainly disagree on a weekly basis for sure. All of us in all directions. Um so how do we do it? What what actually happens? Again, it's it's a conversation, right?

everyone has the right uh to share their point of view and have those opinions or input heard, right? And and we're good at that. Um kind of let's go around the room, if you will. And then it's a dialogue. How do you move forward? um an element that we're we're quite good at um and we've become a lot better at with training uh because you know ultimately we have a number of people in a tribe now uh that you know worked together in the past is this kind of notion of who has the final say in in a certain domain right talk about product and technology Hunter shout out to our CTO >> ultimately we can have all the opinions in the world if we have dissenting views then He is the person we trust, right?

And the the kind of core of that that sentence is trust. That we trust him to make the right decisions to his best of his ability for for tribe and for our customers and so on and so forth, right? Um and agreeing to disagree is very powerful. Uh and me not having to, for example, taking myself as an example, me not having to get involved in every single decision because I know that he's going to figure it out and if he doesn't, he can bring me back in.

Um so yeah dialogue is is a necessity uh for resolving anything quite frankly. >> Um >> I'm not sure if there's like a structured framework to to approach this. Are we talking about human relationships here at the end of the day? Right. >> 100%. I think one of the again one of the insights that we can share is from a you know a leadership team perspective is we have you know weekly operational review meetings but we also have weekly deep discussion meetings.

Now they could be deep discussions on strategy they could be deep discussions on tactics they can also go off into tangents and be deep discussions around political sensitivities. Right? But the the core purpose of the discussion or the very nature of the discussion is it should be a deep one, right? And it should be detailed and it should be thorough and hopefully it turns into a little bit of a you know conflicting of views or differing of opinions and you know a few virtual jabs if need be.

But like you say, it's a it's a ring where it's anything goes. Everyone's equal. You know, no view is a bad view >> with the exception actually of not having a view, right? If you unless you can't offer any value, right? There's there's no point in speaking for the sake of it. So, >> 100%. So yeah, from a from a framework perspective, I think we have done a good job of of creating those regular platforms if you will for those deep discussions to happen and and then the the to allow the sparks to naturally fly and you know again this is this is our way of kind of sharing how we do it and what we do that might not work for every for every startup or or large organization but yeah creating that space I think is is super super important.

Yeah 100% I I mean you know if I think about the actual real framework that we do have is this time blocking right segregation of what is this time that we have dedicated in our Canada actually for >> uh and making sure that that time is used for that kind of dialogue like you just rightly pointed out we have this other >> I guess I'm going to call it a little tool or feature of our of our communication >> that I think it was Hunter to brought who brought into the into the mix and this is like concept of of of of parking loting something and I think it's extremely valuable um

and it's a respected thing that we pull out mid conversation to give know our viewers a real time or a real example is it's effectively identifying that the conversation or the direction the conversation is going in is not conducive to what we're there to do or there to talk about whether it's in agreement or disagreement is kind of besides the point but you can effectively parking lot a topic or parking lot a conversation and is brilliant.

Uh, and it's a card I probably pull out quite often and so let's revisit that. We'll put it on the list and schedule time for it basically. Um, >> and I love it. So yeah, if it's >> but but importantly it it gets put on a list, right? It's not just a card that's waved around and then as a way of dismissing someone and moving on, but you add it you add it to the list and and we come to it at an appropriate time.

>> I feel uncomfortable talking about that so let's just populate. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. uh one one example then that I can think of of where I guess disagreement or uncertainty or differing of views uh ultimately and it was ultimately because it took a little while um you know led to a better outcome was around the the book building market making pre-ordering uh structure of of the product.

Um so from a a tribe uh tokenization of an asset or real estate asset perspective you know we will have the functionality where we make uh the offer available to certain users or all users you know pre-launch um so the pre-order phase and you know ultimately it may fully fund before it even goes live. That was a big topic of you know internal debate back and forth up and down round and round >> but again eventually we got to a point where >> we were able to move forward.

The product now looks fantastic. As a result, the operational flow makes a lot of sense. And from a commercial perspective, it enables us to onboard users of different types or classifications with different access layers, if you will. >> And it has enabled us to build a bit uh you know different or evolved business model pretty early on. We didn't get there quickly, I think, is is the point.

And and that that's something really important that I think is requires us to shine a light on is that when you see a product, when you see a you know a nice looking app and everything looks slick and whatnot, it's possibly assumed that oh you know that was just a designer and you know magic magic happened. You know the magic is actually in the in the ferocious debate. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

It's a very frustrating experience at times as well. Right. Because ultimately spoke about speed earlier you want to move fast. >> Yeah. Right. Ideally, you want to have it done yesterday. >> Um >> but not at the expense of of quality. Okay. Um and finding that balance between we got to get this done. Uh and we have to do it in the right way or to this standard that we want because we do hold ourselves to quite >> quite high standards and and hopefully and the goal obviously is ever increasing standards, right?

Um, but it can be really really frustrating when you have to revisit the same debate more than once because you haven't managed to find common ground or or found the right answer collectively. But yeah, we're we're pretty persistent like that. >> We are indeed persistent. We are um okay. So we're let's look forward a little bit. We're now going towards operational readiness. Uh we had a meeting just today with with uh with VR.

So thank you Dr. Aisha. We'll we'll give you a little shout out today. Great meeting and again we've from day one we've worked with the regulator. So you know whether it's Paul or Yasa or Pratik whoever it may be we we've had a great dialogue from from day one great relationship and built that that rhythm. We're now looking to go operationally live. Uh we have a number of conditions we have to meet.

You know once we received our in principal approval just over a month ago. Um, we have 90 days, 60 now to to get all of those boxes ticked. So, we're going from, I guess, operationally uh immature or early stage to operationally ready. And we have to mature quite quickly, right? Because it's not like we have time to figure these things out. No, we've had to figure everything out in advance. And then when we hit the the go button or the play button, everything has to work.

KYC, AML, compliance, reporting, blah blah blah. So, what does for tribe and again for those that are listening, what does operational maturity look like for us going into, you know, this next stage of of our existence? A large portion of that is is operationalizing the the policies and and effectively the documentation that is our because that's what it is. The documentation that is our license application and and the license that we have been issued needs to actually be reflected in the real world.

Right? It's one thing to write something on a piece of paper and say, "Hey, this looks great, >> but how do you actually implement that in the real world?" Whether that's in the form of a >> of a process that's owned by human, right? Um, and you follow step one, two, three, and you have a sort of a a stage gate. Something needs to be reviewed or or a decision has to be made by a specific person in the organization of a specific rank, let's call it that.

>> Um, and to to an even larger degree, systems, right? Um, so building a uh the product and integrating to all of the systems such as like the the KYC softwares and so on that we that we partner with. Um ultimately it's it's it's doing what we said on paper that we'll do in the real world. Uh and it's not I mean it's not that we can um do half of it and pretend like we do the other half. Ultimately it's an >> we have gone through this operational readiness demos you know we're subject to the to the auditors and so on and so forth.

But ultimately everything we do um uh in in the day-to-day reality of the business also then gets documented uh and reviewed on paper, right? So it's kind of full circle in that sense. Um so this is really the full the full focus right now uh as we have really built our entire you know motus operandi on paper if you will and how we want to to run tribe and and the regulators. Thank you, VR. Have said this looks fantastic.

>> Prove that you can do it basically and how you're going to do it. So, um and that's walk the talk. >> Yeah. Literally um and it's uh >> it's an even bigger lift obviously um than uh than writing the policy documentation and and figuring out how to operate it. Um but this is where the fun part is like this is what we set out to do, right? Actually running the company. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. real the the the theory becomes >> reality. Um so we are now a VASP you know with our imprincipal approval and and soon you know hopefully have operational approval and and we're a fully licensed you know var regulated entity for any founder or you know aspiring kind of uh entrepreneur that's listening and thinking of getting into the virtual asset space the regulated space and starting from scratch like we did and I You know, it's fair to say we are the, you know, youngest >> VASP in that respect in that as far as I'm aware, almost every other Vasp has come from either a a parent company that has existed for quite some time or is, you know, a regional branch of an international, you know, way more established entity than than what we are.

So, you know, not only did we get our to the IPA stage in, you know, record time or certainly one of the fastest to get there, what would you kind of advise, you know, other founders who are looking to build into the space, you know, what what should they get really straight on or really disciplined with from day one to avoid them wasting their time, money, effort, you know, and and losing their sanity?

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a big one. Um, you have the cliche sort of I guess stuff that people would consider as a first first- time entrepreneur generally and I think all of those are true. You know, if you've never if you've never built a venture before, if you never started a company before, most people probably underestimate what it means to go through that process. Uh, I can't, you know, I can't count on on fingers and toes combined how many times I've had conversations with with with founders that, you know, in the looking in the rearview mirror have totally underestimated and perhaps to the extent they said I might not have done it if I knew what I was getting myself into.

If you're building a a VASP or probably any other regulated business quite frankly that's going to be exponentially more difficult and therefore that >> it becomes an even more of a truism I suppose. Um >> knowing to the greatest possible extent what you're getting yourself into would be highly beneficial because it's really difficult right? Uh it it takes a lot of psychological resilience.

uh it takes a fair amount of of just cognitive capacity to work through because it's a it's a dense process to get through um you know the whole licensing application and understanding it. Uh and most founders aren't going to be legal professionals, compliance professionals, you know, lawyers background and so forth. Some are, but not all are. Um, so if I was going to start today, certainly if it was my first business and I wanted to build a regulated business, I would try to get time or exposure to one >> prior to getting into that.

And this is >> something I've, you know, been advised myself in the past trying to build other companies. So understand the industry, understand the business model. In this case, it's even more important. I would say I don't mean that to be offputting uh just because the upfront requirements to start whether that's like time, effort, financial requirements and so on so are just much much much greater right >> um you can start many businesses for today with with with certainly with AI and whatnot for hundreds of dollars or or thousands of dollars or 10,000 the the threshold is quite low actually >> that's not the case with the regulated business right um you're most likely going to have to find external funding and these things from the get-go, right?

Uh unless you're from a from a a come from a position where you can afford to do all that yourself and and perhaps if you don't make it, lose that money, right? Um so yeah, the the the cost and the risk from the get-go is so much higher that it's worthwhile putting in the the time and the effort to really understand what does it mean to build and operate this kind of company in this kind of ecosystem.

Um, and honestly, if someone came to me today and said, "Hey, this is the first time I'm building a business, certainly if they didn't have professional experience in the form of a of a career that's relevant, if they're younger, if this is their first company, I would most likely tell them unless they are really really passionate about what they want to do specifically that I would say perhaps start trying something different first to get the hang of what it means to build product, what it means to actually run a company, what it means to raise funds, hire people, yada yada yada, because you have to take on all of that >> plus all of the other stuff, right?

Um, and that's the tricky part. You can't just walk away from actually building and running the company as you're in a way running two at the same time and and on top of that fundraising, which we all know, anyone who's ever done it knows that's the third job then, right? Um, so it's a lot to take on at once. >> No, definitely. So you know ultimately anyone that is looking at building a startup perhaps the best kind of entry point for them is to actually go and work in a startup and and just see if it's for you because >> I I I see actually an increasing amount of content now particularly on LinkedIn and you know if you look at Instagram versus LinkedIn Instagram makes everything look shiny and beautiful.

LinkedIn is becoming actually quite increasingly negative to be honest. But um some of the raw unfiltered content on LinkedIn is is very true in that you know particularly being the founder of a startup is a very hard lonely very unrewarding place. >> Yeah. >> You got to be a very specific kind of person to be able to keep going. Uh deal with all of the [ __ ] from every angle.

uh take all of the sacrifices first and probably for the longest. Um so I think if you are looking at building something yourself, just being in that environment to see if it's, you know, if those kind of choppy waters are waters that you like is is really helpful. And I think it would actually help a lot of people very quickly determine whether it is for them or not without having to take all of the risk and all of the not the risk as such, >> but I guess just it's a very important life decision.

>> It is. No, no, I think you're right in saying one that a lot of people underestimate and therefore get wrong. >> Yeah, it it definitely is a risk, right? Whether you're taking even if you're not the person taking the full say financial risk because I think that's what most people would default to when you talk about risk around startups. But there there are other risks and things like have a quotequote normal Monday to Friday 9 to5 kind of job which in city like to buy most people don't because people work generally really hard here and aspire to greater things and so on and so

forth and therefore put in perhaps longer hours but >> you're going to be walking away from a lot of things in your personal life that perhaps your peers around you are going to pursue right uh it could be everything from you social gatherings or or family gatherings or even um having a family in the first place or the ability to to to buy a house to have a home which is again core to trib's mission um there's so many u indirect consequences certainly in the early days of a startup and that could be it could be one year but that could be five years as well right >> or even longer if you're lucky or unlucky however you want to look at it right um >> it's only when you come out on the other end and the world sees Oh wow,

that that looks amazing and look at what they've accomplished and they forget that. Yeah, but you know they've plugged it out for six years to get there and now it looks very shiny and sexy and all these things and entrepreneurship is very >> you know there's a lot of glitter and glamour around it but that's really a small part of the journey quite frankly now you're reaping the rewards >> tip of the iceberg.

Yeah. >> Yeah. So look looking ahead then um when tribe succeeds which it will um from a founding team p perspective look at the you know whether it's the founders or you know the core early team that we have in place today which principle which one principle or you kind of alluded to values earlier if you want to use value that's fine which one will have been the most influential on getting us to that point of success better get this one right.

>> No pressure. >> Um for me it would be it would be that we don't believe that we have all the answers and as a result we're extremely open to to learning right um if you go into any company but in this case Tribe thinking that you know it all um you'll end up not learning nearly as much as you could have. Therefore, you're not going to be applying concepts like first principles thinking, you're not going to be open to the idea that whilst the north star might still hold true from from the beginning, >> the way you get there and and and the way you solve it may just not work, right?

So, um >> yeah, as as a team generally, we're extremely good at remaining open to being wrong, right? Uh or being proven wrong. So, I would say that's probably the the one. Very good. Okay. And final question. >> Wait before we go forward. Yeah. What's yours? >> Oh, hang on. Who's the who's the interview here? Um, for me it is speed. We we we from day one when we decided to to go, we decided to go.

It wasn't a like we said, shall we run? Yeah, we're going to run. No one asked which direction. And no one asked, you know, who am I running with, how far should I run? We just ran. And I think that's the nice thing about Tribe is that everybody that has now joined us has just joined almost like a running pack, right? It was almost like a run club as opposed to as a business. Like we're already running.

If you want to join us, come and run with us. >> Yeah. >> And even, you know, let's use Benoir as a great example. Even in the 3 and 1/2 weeks that he's been here, what we've achieved from a KYC compliance perspective, we have done in or certainly you guys largely have done in days or weeks that have taken others months or years. >> Yeah. >> You know, we got our imprincipal approval in 5 months.

It's taken others, well, a lot of others don't get there. Some others take 12, 18 months. We've built a product in a few months. Again, some companies take years. And everything we've done, we've done with conviction and intent and speed, but not at the cost of uh quality, not at the cost of discipline or organization. Actually, we get commended on our discipline and organization more than anything.

>> Yeah. But the fact that we can do that at speed is is something I want us to continue and hold true for as long as we possibly can. As we get older, as we get bigger, yes, you know, things may not be able to evolve quite so rapidly, but you know, being in that environment is something very, very rewarding and very um, for one of a better word, addictive because we don't want to stop moving.

And I think that's the the common theme with everyone we speak to, everything we do is how can we do this to the absolute best of our ability, >> but do it fast. So, um, so yeah, speed would be my, uh, my principle. >> We'll keep running. >> Keep running. Yeah, we should have done this running. That will be the next one. >> Um, so unless you've got any more questions for me, the final question I have for you is, um, we're ultimately building tribe in public.

That's why we're here. That's why I write. That's why we post. And and again, shout out to Alistister and and Cormarmac. It have created a very good dynamic in under a month realistically. Um again, speed again quality. >> Um and you know that that engine that marketing engine is is is starting to hum. But again, as a founding principle, um one of those is is openness, right? and just doing this in public, not being afraid to share uh our frustrations and where we've got things wrong, but also celebrating our wins.

And so, give me your prediction for what lies ahead for Tribe. Um what does the road ahead look like? And can you give me some of the major obstacles that start on the obstacles side and some of the major opportunities? >> Yeah, what's a biggie? Major obstacles. uh core focus right now is to go operation live like we said earlier and there are two really two major obstacles there. One is >> we need to uh obtain the they call no objection certificate from uh the central bank of the UE to be able to actually accept uh funds from our future investors.

uh and sequentially in nature the next steps become to actually bring the business operationally alive because if we can't accept investments we can't actually run the business. So it's really pretty core to drive. Um that is definitely the kind of the core obstacle number one is to to obtain that and then go live. Um, obstacle number two is it's one thing to to go to market and and uh and while it's, you know, an opportunity and the main opportunity lies ahead commercially is to tokenize a couple of of our first assets and bring our first investors onto the platform and so on so forth.

Um, it is to start building and executing on scalable systems, right? um to to bring us to you know another level u that will probably take most of 2026 uh to go from one to two two to four and so on and so forth um and that >> that does take quite a lot of of effort and time to be able to do that and if we look towards let's call it like non Dubai based opportunities >> some of these processes that we have gone through in the past few months will have to be repeated again to some degree I'm talking about licensing processes setup processes katar might be one of from other Emirates might be one other opportunities, right?

Uh so deciding which ones make sense and then overcoming those to be able to then go to market operationalizing there uh is certainly another another major one for for uh know the months ahead and into the summer probably. And the opportunity I mean the opportunity is is unfathomably large right like wherever we look there is appetite for this um and this I mean tokenization of real estate but but also other assets right um >> so whilst actually and in there lies the challenge of saying no also right focus and whatnot so that that's going to be all all the time >> um finding uh >> the strength I suppose to say oh this looks really interested but we're going to go down this way um and the opportunity is is setting out to to actually do what we said we would do, right?

Proving that this this can be done. Um it like you alluded to it early in the conversation, there's only 10 properties so far that have been done in the in the native uh sort of tit level tokenization so far, but there are other models too, right? And ultimately I think as an ecosystem, Tribe is a player of an ecosystem that is, you know, tokenization of real world assets. It's a very hot topic around the world right now, but it's still quite small, right, relative to traditional financial markets and whatnot.

And proving that um you know, our ecosystem and tribe as a player deserves a seat at the big boy table. Uh that's the opportunity ahead, right? Uh and actually unlocking all of these incredible use cases that come with bringing assets on the blockchain and and so on so forth, which again, another conversation for another day perhaps. Um so yeah that's >> so um ultimately you know getting tribe uh known at an institutional level is really the the big opportunity.

>> Yeah absolutely. Um for the again big boys to get involved they need certainty obviously right and they have that now there's regulatory certainty in the market we will be able to prove by executing using our technology executing using our our licenses and so on so forth that >> whilst we're a young company in age in actual fact we've built very uh mature infrastructure mature operating processes and so on so forth um and really jointly because it's No single entity can go out and solve these things themselves.

We're talking about infrastructure level kind of missions here. um unlocking liquidity is a major part of the issue of of tokenization of real world assets and has been I think core to a lot of predecessors to tribe whether it's in real estate or not having been able to go all the way not having been able to crack uh this new asset class at scale >> is because they haven't uh been able uh to bring in the demand side very much right Um I think that opportunity is there now.

We can see it. Um is figuring out how that you know I guess the bridges that we need to build actually uh function in the real world. Uh so that once once we do that and and hopefully and I want us to obviously be be the one but I also acknowledge that there's going to be many others because we need many others like we we can't do this alone. a single private entity in in one city in one country in the world isn't going to create or form a new industry in a new asset class.

Like we need to do this collectively and many there are many players that have a role uh in this kind of journey ahead but um certainly bringing in uh mature not necessarily only institutional but like bigger players into the into the mix. Um that's when the magic starts happening. So game on to the competition is what you're saying. Bring it on is what you're saying. Yeah, come chat with us, but uh catch us if you can.

Um Seb, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for coming on. I have the the benefit of speaking to you uh every day and and most cases multiple times a day. um you are the absolute engine at Tribe and um you know your superpower really is to be able to um dive in at at any level of detail across all areas of the business at a you know moment's notice and uh it's nice for me to be able to talk to you like this and share this uh this conversation in this format.

So thank you and uh yeah look forward to to seeing how many of your predictions come true. >> Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Thank you.